Tango as it crosses over with the relationships, seduction and sexuality

[JournalInTime]

I was fortunate in having an experienced follower girlfriend to help me avoid that trap! I would always Just Dance, and incorporate whatever we were supposed to be learning into that – that way I'd find out whether I could actually lead it.

I'm convinced that "just dance" works way, way better than drills for AT. My ex loved drills . . . and with her, my dancing never became fluid. My current partner likes to practice more often, but she prefers to work on her things while I work on my things. The only pitfall I think people need to avoid is to interpret "just dance" to mean "just dance like at the milonga when you have things to practice."

 

[Brummbaer]

What I learned while doing close-order drill and marksmanship training in the Marine Corps is 'muscle-memory' by doing things repetitively until it's ingrained in my brain.

The question is what you learn as a drill? The 8CB as the only sequence to get to a cross, or the drill to lead a cross as an element? Try 2 consecutive crosses, if that fits, without the 8CB. Or leading a cross in a single step. Programmed sequences can work, but are difficult to store and replay. AT is using those elements in your own combination. The sequence you may learn is usually

As another thought on that, you can also lead a couple of 'cut' steps consecutively with an ocho cortado (if it fits the music).

 

[Brummbaer]

But... like it was mentioned, that kind of leading is expensive to learn, both in time and money

It's certainly an aspiration as you get beyond the novice stage.

 

[JournalInTime]

The question is what you learn as a drill?

Drills are a great way to fake high competence in a short period of time but a terrible way to learn general fundamentals. I saw this all the time in physics . . . people would memorize solutions instead of learning the theory, and then crater in actual research. Dancing skews this way, too, because it's a fluid environment.

 

[Cabbit]

Write an one sentence horror story:

The 8CB as the only sequence to get to a cross

 

[Brummbaer]

The sequence you may learn is usually...

Oops. My checking drill failed, or was it a cut phrase?

That should read: The sequence you may learn is usually just a container for an element. Explore other ways of using that element within your own sequence.

 

[TTanguero]

A couple of my teachers offered the same advice when exposed to sequences in group classes: Experiment and see what else is possible. Cut the sequence short. See what feels natural at the end of it. Anything taught on one side of the embrace, try it on the other.

I have a rubbish step-memory anyway, so my approach has always been to treat sequences merely as illustrative examples of types of movement.

 

[itwillhappen]

But... like it was mentioned, that kind of leading is expensive to learn, both in time and money.

I have made up my mind to learn this ... should I finally have the time and money.
In the meantime, I try to deal with unexpected situations. It doesn't cost anything, I have to learn that on the fly on the pista, whether I want it or not.

 

[Rabbit]

Anyway, I can count on these people to cross on every fifth count in eight no matter what I lead, which (quietly, internally) infuriates me.

I've never experienced that one... do a bunch of leaders go around doing nothing but 8CB?

 

[Brummbaer]

I've never experienced that one... do a bunch of leaders go around doing nothing but 8CB?

When your only tool is a hammer, then every problem is a nail.

It happens. Seen something like that with a ballroom dance couple who branched out to a milonga. You could argue that they shouldn't be let loose yet... but then think about a simple dance without complex moves. Still probably best not done as a sequence. You have to know more to do less.

 

[Tango Newbie]

The question is what you learn as a drill? The 8CB as the only sequence to get to a cross, or the, drill to lead a cross as an element? Try 2 consecutive crosses, if that fits, without the 8CB. Or leading a cross in a single step. Programmed sequences can work, but are difficult to store and replies using those elements in your own combination. The sequence you may learn is usually

As another thought on that, you can also lead a couple of 'cut' steps consecutively with an ocho cortado (if it fits the music).

When I was referring to "drill" I was making reference to marching steps I had to master in the Corps. We had regular marching, half-steps, obliques, to the rear, and a couple others, all at the commands of the drill instructor, with times where we actually had a band and had to all be on our left foot on the beat of the drum.

But in the context of 'drills' we learn in class, they're those times where we practice steps, oftentimes at the command of the instructor. It works great for me due to my experience with marching (cadence).

I bring my follower to the cross quite a bit when I start off, using the 8CB, and then parts as an element to some of the other steps. I also do the back/front ochos, and the ocho cortado quite a bit, again going to the cross and throwing in a sacada once in a while. I also do the molinete, especially if there is traffic.

So as a beginner with about 6 months under my belt, these are the things I'm working on at the moment, along with the usual things beginners work on (frame, embrace, axis, balance, and most importantly 'walking').

Of course at this point in my AT experience, I'm much more focused on executing things the way they were taught, than any embellishments, and don't focus on much else.

 

[Tango Newbie]

Oops. My checking drill failed, or was it a cut phrase?

That should read: The sequence you may learn is usually just a container for an element. Explore other ways of using that element within your own sequence.

Thanks for clarifying that. I'm pretty good at the 8CB, but slowly learning how I get the follower into other crosses (without the 8CB).

 

[fiesta0618]

Drills are a great way to fake high competence in a short period of time but a terrible way to learn general fundamentals. I saw this all the time in physics . . . people would memorize solutions instead of learning the theory, and then crater in actual research. Dancing skews this way, too, because it's a fluid environment.

I'm not going to question your experience or your analysis about the activities people do, and whether or not they are actually helpful. You have consistently demonstrated that your judgment is sound and reliable.

However, speaking as a teacher, I would say that there's nothing wrong with drills. I would simply judge that those students were doing bad, unhelpful drills. Drill is simply repetition of something sufficiently simple that you can succeed reliably. If you drill in such a way that the context of the focus task continually changes, it's actually one of the best way to learn and solidify fundamentals.

But designing a good drill is pretty hard. And even if you design a good drill, getting the student to understand which portions of it are important and which are contextual fluff is also hard.

 

[JournalInTime]

I'm not going to question your experience or your analysis about the activities people do, and whether or not they are actually helpful. You have consistently demonstrated that your judgment is sound and reliable.

Thanks for that . . . I wish I could tell myself the same thing and believe it.

However, speaking as a teacher, I would say that there's nothing wrong with drills.

To be clear: I'm not saying that drills are a problem in themselves. My personal and thus limited experience is that you can drill specific actions, and sometimes sequences of actions, in response to predictable stimuli, but that it's harder to drill anything in response to a totally inconstant, transitory environment, and that it's for all practical purposes impossible to drill complex, composite skills made up of indeterminate numbers of responses to indeterminate numbers of stimuli (by which I mean something like "physics" or "medicine").

In the specific context of tango, I think you absolutely can drill, say, 180° right pivots on the left foot, or back steps with the right leg, or lapiz technique. You can probably drill, for instance, ochos, though they're composite movements with huge variability – even "left ocho atras" leaves open questions of starting point, degree of pivot, speed, suspension, and exit. Still, any of that might be useful. But you can't drill dancing all 2:56 of El flete except as a choreo that won't work with anybody but one specific partner in an open space, much less on other music. And you can't drill even the pivots or ochos very usefully with a partner – that's best done by yourself in front of a mirror or at a barre.

What worries me is when people say they did couples drills of specific steps to specific music with specific partners, because my (very) personal experience is that such things hurt more than they help. You need to drill by yourself to perfect movements, then "just dance" with someone else to integrate those. Until you do the second part, you aren't dancing.

 

[JournalInTime]

I've never experienced that one... do a bunch of leaders go around doing nothing but 8CB?

No, it has nothing to do with leaders at all. It's as I said: "followers who quit their training early." They learned about that far and never went past it, so for them all walking eight counts have a cross at five no matter what's led. Because they're cute and popular enough to dance a lot, they sometimes dance the walk and cross very well indeed, but they dance it even where it makes no sense.