Tango as it crosses over with the relationships, seduction and sexuality

[Cabbit]

No, it has nothing to do with leaders at all. It's as I said: "followers who quit their training early." They learned about that far and never went past it, so for them all walking eight counts have a cross at five no matter what's led. Because they're cute and popular enough to dance a lot, they sometimes dance the walk and cross very well indeed, but they dance it even where it makes no sense.

I am glad to learn that there are some shortcomings that the rondas at my home milongas don't suffer from. Since sometimes the ronda is painful to watch, I find a measure of comfort in this. I think that in part it is because since there is a shortage of leaders, there is a number of long time dancers helping out the beginners courses and they know enough to mix it up a bit. There is never just one pattern drilled in. The followers are taught to follow exactly what is led and don't do anything on their own, which works out great for most of the dancers who don't have aspirations for more. And since there is such an abundance of followers, leaders don't have to settle for -young, cute, attractive but quit lessons early. They can just as easily have -young, cute, attractive and very competent.

 

[itwillhappen]

You need to drill by yourself to perfect movements, then "just dance" with someone else to integrate those. Until you do the second part, you aren't dancing.

Or you might switch to Line Dance, where the drill is mostly the dance.

 

[Brummbaer]

Thanks for clarifying that. I'm pretty good at the 8CB, but slowly learning how I get the follower into other crosses (without the 8CB).

There's a transition in dance teaching, from just getting you to 'succeed' in doing some movement (with the body actions to achieve that), to doing your own. Drills have a place, particularly when you want to get a group to do what's required irrespective of the situation. This can be military, rescue, safety checks, medical procedures, etc. - line dance or choreographed chorus line. With social AT you have to think for yourself. You know the 'parts', but you can assemble them in a different way, each with their own merit. It sounds like you're starting that transition.

 

[Brummbaer]

because since there is a shortage of leaders, there is a number of long time dancers helping out the beginners courses and they know enough to mix it up a bit. There is never just one pattern drilled in. The followers are taught to follow exactly what is led and don't do anything on their own

Good dancers aren't necessarily good teachers. But a good teacher has to know sufficient about the dance and movement to enable the student to access the move.

This is both an advantage and disadvantage for social AT. Anybody can 'teach'. There are no set rules for social AT steps (except, maybe, disapproval). AT teachers don't need a qualification, but their experience and teaching skills may be limited.

I'm not criticizing 'amateur' AT teachers. We need them. Promoting AT depends on them and their enthusiasm. But you need to understand the limitations.

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

There are no set rules for social AT steps (except, maybe, disapproval).

^^lol

 

[Cabbit]

Good dancers aren't necessarily good teachers. But a good teacher has to know sufficient about the dance and movement to enable the student to access the move.

This is both an advantage and disadvantage for social AT. Anybody can 'teach'. There are no set rules for social AT steps (except, maybe, disapproval). AT teachers don't need a qualification, but their experience and teaching skills may be limited.

I'm not criticizing 'amateur' AT teachers. We need them. Promoting AT depends on them and their enthusiasm. But you need to understand the limitations.

I agree with what you said, but at the moment the direct correlation with my message you quoted escapes me.

 

[Rabbit]

No, it has nothing to do with leaders at all. It's as I said: "followers who quit their training early." They learned about that far and never went past it, so for them all walking eight counts have a cross at five no matter what's led. Because they're cute and popular enough to dance a lot, they sometimes dance the walk and cross very well indeed, but they dance it even where it makes no sense.

Around here there are a lot of experienced followers who auto-cross after a walk outside or in cross system for the opposite reason - they did a lot of classes, and class sequences that start with walking into the cross as a setup for some other move were ubiquitous back when I was doing classes.

The only followers who can get away with not doing classes are the multidisciplinary dancers that do something else as their main dance, and usually they just don't follow front crosses. Which is not really a problem, I just don't lead the crosses, there are lots of other movements that I can dance with them with good connection so they're not necessary.

 

[Greybeard]

While I'm being exposed to more intermediate and advanced steps that I'm still learning, especially with my weight distribution on my axis, dissociation, and foot placement (without hitting one my GF's toes), one of my biggest 'problems' (if that's what you'd call it) is being too eager to try these more advanced steps. I'm one of those people who when given a challenge, works diligently to master it, and not afraid to 'fail' along the way. What I learned while doing close-order drill and marksmanship training in the Marine Corps is 'muscle-memory' by doing things repetitively until it's ingrained in my brain.

A course of instruction from one teacher should build the foundation of the dance and add steps as the basics are mastered.

When you learned marksmanship you probably did something like:
Sight picture and range safety
Prone - squeeze the trigger and breath control
Kneeling - a little less stable
Offhand (standing) - Requires a bunch more stability
Full Auto - learn to use burst
Combat range - find the target and shoot/don't shoot decision
(and of course range safety at every step.)

You built the groundwork for each step before you went there.

Weight distribution, dissociation and foot placement are really fundamental. You won't be able to master the more advanced steps without them. And if you get an advanced step working with poor fundamentals, when your fundamentals improve you might need to relearn the muscle memory of the advanced step.

But keep having fun.

 

[Gssh]

But in the context of 'drills' we learn in class, they're those times where we practice steps, oftentimes at the command of the instructor. It works great for me due to my experience with marching (cadence).

I like the term "drill" - one of the things that i think makes learning how to dance more difficult than it needs to be is that steps/figures can be viewed as of three different things (definitions stolen for martial arts):

Drill: Exercise that trains attributes, timing and understanding of ones own and the partners geometry, but will not (or very rarely) happen when dancing
Combo: Exercise that trains responses/situations that are very likely to happen when dancing and can be used "as is" in a lot of situations
Choreography: Exercise that looks good and demonstrates interesting dynamics/geometry that are not going to happen when dancing

Most practice sequences are somewhere in that triangle, and thinking about what we are doing at the moment in class can help with using the information effectively. I tend to consider most practice steps to be choreographies, and it is my responsibility to figure out how i can use them to drill attributes / movements / transitions , and then figure out if there is a combo in there that i want to practice.

One of the risks is confusing being able to do a choreography with having the attributes and movement skills that would make this choreography possible as spontaneous dance, and with most tango instruction having somewhat haphazard didactics it is sometimes hard to figure out what we are actually trying to learn.

 

[Cabbit]

One of the risks is confusing being able to do a choreography with having the attributes and movement skills that would make this choreography possible as spontaneous dance

That sounds like a risk only until the first milonga with dancers not from the same school.

 

[itwillhappen]

Drill: Exercise that trains attributes, timing and understanding of ones own and the partners geometry, but will not (or very rarely) happen when dancing

I think milonga steps are the exception, I feel like a drill sergeant then. With the difference that I am responsible for ensuring that the female being in front of me is not thrown out of her comfort zone under any circumstances.

 

[John Doe]

Drills are a great way to fake high competence in a short period of time but a terrible way to learn general fundamentals. I saw this all the time in physics . . . people would memorize solutions instead of learning the theory, and then crater in actual research. Dancing skews this way, too, because it's a fluid environment.

I disagree. For new followers, drills are the only way to develop the foot strength, balance and sense of axis necessary to dance en vivo with the proper form, i.e. the posture and movement that allows for proper connection (and therefore, true following). This is why ballet schools long ago made the shift away from teaching all steps from the beginning, to requiring strength and balance be developed at the barre before attempting certain steps - so students don't habituate themselves to incorrect movements.

 

[John Doe]

I've never experienced that one... do a bunch of leaders go around doing nothing but 8CB?

Yes.

 

[Cabbit]

I disagree. For new followers, drills are the only way to develop the foot strength, balance and sense of axis necessary to dance en vivo with the proper form, i.e. the posture and movement that allows for proper connection (and therefore, true following). This is why ballet schools long ago made the shift away from teaching all steps from the beginning, to requiring strength and balance be developed at the barre before attempting certain steps - so students don't habituate themselves to incorrect movements.

Depends on whats the drill about. Exercises for ankle and feet strength, body awareness and similar, yes, great.

A lot of schools ive seen drill whole sequences. With bad technique, because they dont direct their students towards the drills you mentioned. So, it is a pretty bad combination.

 

[JournalInTime]

Depends on whats the drill about. Exercises for ankle and feet strength, body awareness and similar, yes, great.

A lot of schools ive seen drill whole sequences. With bad technique, because they dont direct their students towards the drills you mentioned. So, it is a pretty bad combination.

Exactly what I was saying.

—

You can drill skill fragments but not whole skills. In partner dance, that means you can get good at specific movements . . . but that's where it stops. Trouble is, people tend to think they can drill entire sequences or even tangos, which never ends well because such "drills" fail to account for a partner. Ballet isn't tango – and from a training perspective, that's the main reason why. Equating performance dance to partner dance is a really dubious proposition at best.