Tango as it crosses over with the relationships, seduction and sexuality

Ah, I see. I apologize for misunderstanding.
No worries. Also: Thanks. It's rare that anybody apologizes for a misreading on the Internet!
A lot of the attributes carry over, and ballet - because its main framework has been for a long time to teach - has a extremely well developed system of actually effectively training people. And that is something that tango very much lacks.
I've been taught by at least two – and I suspect three – teachers who applied ballet systematics to tango. It was interesting. On one hand, they were good at telling us how to create movements and avoid injury. On the other, they confused a lot of students by using ballet terminology (battement, chaînés, ronde de jambe, etc.) that didn't translate when they went to other tango lessons. Granted, that's an easy error to make in a francophone region!
bellydance seems to translate well, as does brazilian samba.
I've found it easy to dance with people who later told me they danced baladi, blues, kizomba, or samba de gafieira. My personal experience is that salseras are too wiggly and ballerinas aren't grounded enough. So I find that other styles vary in value.
tango teaching in general does not seem to have a great toolkit to teach people how being grounded
Grounded is the big one! My coach constantly reminds me that tango is a "dance of the earth," not a "dance of the air." She keeps saying that I need to keep my knees softer, dance closer to and "in" the ground, and try not to look like a tall, floaty show dancer, because that's another style. I'm not 100% on board with the low, heavy look, but when it's totally absent in a partner (as I hinted at above), it's really hard to dance tango with that partner. The elderly Argentines at our local milongas all dance low, and stomp out their steps . . . you can see the canyengue.
Another view would be that ballet is the most common training path that young women who enjoy dance and movement are exposed to.
Growing up, my best friend had four sisters; three were put into ballet. The local ballet school was full of girls I knew. My ex started in ballet at that time. My life and dance partner started in ballet. My (female) coach started her dance career in ballet. And when I list the last 10 women I danced with and know well enough to call friends, ~60% did at least some ballet.

So, I think ballet shows up in tango mostly because girls inclined to dance at all get shoved into ballet, and because they are inclined to dance, they grow into women who take up other dance styles later in life. Ballet isn't often consciously selected as good preparation for tango by future tangueras.
I don't think it really matters that much exactly which discipline one has done before - it's still a large advantage over not having done any.
As long as you can filter out the unwanted. As I said, I find unfiltered salsa and ballet dancers to be iffy interpreters of tango, though certainly more stable and supple dancers. But as I journey through tango, I'm finding that the "missing piece" is more often tango interpretation than general dance athleticism. I'm slowly coming to regret my "Technique above all!" obsession, because it kind of steered me away from a lot of potential partners who were very musical but not very athletic.
 
As I said, I find unfiltered salsa and ballet dancers to be iffy interpreters of tango, though certainly more stable and supple dancers. But as I journey through tango, I'm finding that the "missing piece" is more often tango interpretation than general dance athleticism.

It's the opposite for me... as leader I can be responsible for the entire interpretation myself if I need to be. Lack of physicality, that I can't do anything about.
 
My teacher will dance with me at milongas. I rarely invite her because her standards are so high, I’m terrified (strange that I’m not terrified during lessons). A few days ago we had a good tanda (witnesses remarked the dancing was good...) and even she was pleased: “your dancing was musical and simple; you didn’t try any experiments; and only danced combinations you know well...”

I have a tanda planned for Oct 9 with another teacher (I told her I needed 6 months to work up the courage to invite her and then and there we set the date for 6 months later)! It’s in both of our calendars. I remarked that any deficiency in quality would be the fault of my teacher (who was standing next to us) :)

For me the feeling that the follower is getting pleasure from me is important...
I'm curious how this went, and I'm really hoping that it did happen as planned. I've really enjoyed reading this long thread.

Also, I can see a lot of parallels in the discussion of AT's close embrace with the ones I'm learning in Brazilian Zouk (which is quite new to the Pittsburgh area). I think that the best phrase I've heard used at zouk class is that it's "an exploration of platonic sensuality". And coming from having started learning dance in a ballroom setting where they love to leave that 6"+ for Jesus in between the dancers, AT and BZ have been incredibly challenging (for an introvert, by I'm trying to change that). I'm looking forward to reading more of everyone's comments.
 
I'm curious how this went, and I'm really hoping that it did happen as planned. I've really enjoyed reading this long thread.

Also, I can see a lot of parallels in the discussion of AT's close embrace with the ones I'm learning in Brazilian Zouk (which is quite new to the Pittsburgh area). I think that the best phrase I've heard used at zouk class is that it's "an exploration of platonic sensuality". And coming from having started learning dance in a ballroom setting where they love to leave that 6"+ for Jesus in between the dancers, AT and BZ have been incredibly challenging (for an introvert, by I'm trying to change that). I'm looking forward to reading more of everyone's comments.
Tango is great for introverts. It is actually acceptable to skip small talk and insta-connect with people through dance. And then it is acceptable to continue not talking with them. :)
 
Tango is great for introverts. It is actually acceptable to skip small talk and insta-connect with people through dance. And then it is acceptable to continue not talking with them. :)
I can do the small talk thing. It's more the hugging a stranger thing that can be a lot for me, but the more I do it, the more spoons I collect for it and the more of it I can do (It's like practicing a move). But the whole making googly eyes across the floor to get a "subtle nod" before I can go ask for a dance is still very weird to me. In ballroom and salsa, I'm allowed to just go ask a lady to dance and if she says "no", it's not a big deal. The best local AT teachers are in love with that because it's "what they do in Buenos Aires". Well, that's over 5300 miles from Pittsburgh and who are "they" anyways that I should care? Can't we just dance please? <insert eyeroll here> Learning to dance is difficult enough to learn well without this eye contact game on top of it. The cabeso (or however it's spelled) is the one thing I don't like about going to a milonga. (And the more the teacher tries to explain how it's about the Latin culture and a man "saving face" by not having to walk away without a dance just makes me care about it even less every time she goes on about it.)
 
I think mirada/ cabeceo are the best thing, for many many reasons.

I also think those reasons become more obvious as the ways you use your milonga time change. When i was starting tango, i went to milongas to dance as much as possible. Now i also go to eat and drink, see friends, have a chat. So having a way to signal when you are interested in dancing as opposed to just hanging out, it is useful.

And it is also useful to be able to secure a dance just with your eyes from across the room, because it is faster and more convenient than walking.

Do i sound lazy? I might be, i might be.
 
It's the opposite for me... as leader I can be responsible for the entire interpretation myself if I need to be.
I can be. I just don't like it. A huge part of what I seek from tango is 100% collaborative creativity.
Lack of physicality, that I can't do anything about.
As I'm closer to 79 than to 29 (okay, I'm in my mid 50s), I'm feeling my genes and realizing that I can't keep dancing super-physically forever. So, I'm trying to be super-musical to make up for it, and can't very well ask for something different from a partner.
 
The cabeso (or however it's spelled) is the one thing I don't like about going to a milonga.
It just takes some getting used to, and then it becomes something magical. Being able to agree to dance without proximity is wonderful!

This is the best piece I've seen explaining the value of the cabeceo:
 
Looks like it may not be shareable, although it is public, so here it is. It's written by Bethany Mary:

Cabeceo: Let’s end the excuses
July 29, 2019

First, I want to say this is another vulnerable moment where I will share some personal experiences I don’t often discuss. However, I believe this is an important piece for me to write. I hope to influence people to have compassion and consider others’ perspectives before judging from their own perceptions. I hope to yield positive and constructive revelations as I share one more reason why proper cabeceo is so important. And the reason will come as a surprise.

By nature, I am a people pleaser. I have always had a hard time saying no to people. Cabeceo helps empower me in tango. This is why I am a strong supporter of proper cabeceo and often have no problem rejecting bad invitations or saying no to verbal requests, even when I enjoy the dancer. However, I hear many excuses for not using cabeceo:
The lights were too dim. My eyesight is poor. (S)he couldn’t see me. I really wanted to
dance with him/her. I want to make sure everyone is taken care of at my event. I’m just
being friendly.

I’ve tried to defend the case for why there is no excuse, but find resistance. I continue to be frustrated when I’m on the receiving end of those excuses in discussions or around the floor.

Despite moments of strength, I am still caught off guard by invasive invitations. My natural reaction before I can make a conscious decision of how to handle the situation is to accept the dance, even when I don't want to dance with that person. When I discuss these specific moments with my peers later, I am encouraged to, “just say no,” or “you should just ignore or avoid that bad cabeceo,” and finally, “it’s up to you to be in control.” I often find these comments discouraging. First, I already know this and am dumbfounded by how I accepted. Second, I find these comments are addressing the victim’s actions instead of the culprit’s. This reminds me of the feedback often given to assault and rape victims. “Why didn’t you just tell him no,” “You should have avoided the situation,” and “You shouldn’t have been wearing that outfit.” By no means am I equating the two, yet I can’t help but make a connection

Yep, extreme correlation number one, but am I really that far out of line? Just like a woman shouldn’t have to fight off unwanted physical touch, I shouldn’t have to work so hard to avoid dancing with someone I don’t want to dance with in this intimate dance. Additionally, this is not a stretch for me because of how I often find myself relating bad cabeceos to my personal life experience. After much reflection I’ve finally identified why I am so passionate about this concept. The simple, but dark, truth: In my past, I have been intimate with men just because they pressured me, even though I did not want that level of intimacy.

Do you see the parallel yet? Bear with me...

Did they rape me? No, not forcefully. Did I want to get intimate? No. They pressured me into getting what they wanted, while disregarding what I wanted. Sadly, there are a few variations; men applied pressure in different ways, though never physically. I found myself frozen and compliant, unable to even say no, despite internally not wanting to progress. When I shared these experiences with friends, I was given that similar advice, “just say no,” or “just avoid the whole situation.” Again simple answers that should be easy to execute, but so elusive for me. And why is it my fault for not saying no, instead of their fault for pressuring me? If you have a willing partner do you really need to convince them to be intimate?

So, when someone gives me an improper cabeceo, when someone pressures me into getting what they want, disregarding what I may want, subconsciously my mind has made the correlation to my past. I’ve only recently been able to connect the dots consciously. When I receive invasive invitations, one of three reactions can happen: a positive one; I’m empowered by my past and can easily stand up for my desires and reject the invitation. A negative one; the correlation cripples me into accepting. And finally the default one; my people pleasing personality reacts and accepts before I can think about it. When this happens, I am often reminded of my past and how I just complied in those situations too.

So for all the people who may have misinterpreted me for being uptight, selective, or that I’m not generous enough with my dances to promote a friendly environment… I hope this enlightens you to what I may be going through when you decide you have a good excuse not to use a proper cabeceo. Or when you think you are giving me a good cabeceo, but it’s actually invasive.

Women, although my correlations are more directly associated with men, this article does not exclude us and our behavior. Men face just as many inappropriate requests, if not more, often due to role imbalances. Men can be caught by a “gentleman” trap. If a man declines a woman it is perceived more negatively than when a woman declines a man. No person (man or woman) has the right to pressure anyone into a dance for any reason. Do you really want to dance with someone who doesn’t want to dance with you? Would you force someone to be in a relationship with you if you knew they didn’t want to be with you (or worse they wanted to be with someone else)? Extreme correlation number two, but like it or not, the analogy fits.

So again, I implore that we all reflect on how we use cabeceo and think about the nature of its true purpose. The core purpose of a cabeceo/mirada is to invite someone discreetly without pressuring him/her to dance. What a beautiful concept that cannot be out-dated. In a transforming world focusing on improving consent culture, cabeceo brings that concept to the floor. And just to be clear, I’ve been given a great non-invasive cabeceo from someone sitting right beside me. Conversely, I have been given a bad, invasive cabeceo from someone over ten feet away. It’s not about the distance, it’s about the pressure and how discrete one is being. Proper cabeceo ensures both dancers have a mutual desire to dance with each other.

This is why cabeceo is so personal and important to me.
 
I can be. I just don't like it. A huge part of what I seek from tango is 100% collaborative creativity.

I used to think that was what I wanted, but the better I get at interpretation, the more I appreciate what followers who choose to mainly follow are actually offering. So I don't actually have a preference between these different styles of following.
 
I used to think that was what I wanted, but the better I get at interpretation, the more I appreciate what followers who choose to mainly follow are actually offering. So I don't actually have a preference between these different styles of following.
My (expensive, slow, and often difficult) work with my coach since about 2018 has been almost entirely on interpretation. I've done that work with my primary partner (i.e., follower), and her work since about 2018 has also been almost entirely on interpretation. This has led me to a mental place where I see the follower's job as including a 50/50 role in interpretation – that is, receiving the music with her ears as much as through my lead. Consequently, when I dance with a follower who shuts out the music except as I interpret it, I feel like I'm doing too much work and kind of resent it. (Incidentally, when I dance with a follower who never forces pauses or otherwise constrains my lead, I also feel that way.)

So, I do have a preference. Fortunately, one of the more influential schools around here starts out everybody in both roles and rejects the term "follower" in favor of "interpreter," so there's no shortage of partners who meet my preference. :)
 
Consequently, when I dance with a follower who shuts out the music except as I interpret it, I feel like I'm doing too much work and kind of resent it. (Incidentally, when I dance with a follower who never forces pauses or otherwise constrains my lead, I also feel that way.)

Maybe that's the difference - I don't perceive the creative interpretation as work at all. I enjoy it. I also am not sure if I have ever experienced a partner forcing a pause for any reason other than collision avoidance.
 

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