Not at all. There's a reason why most of the top followers in the world have a serious ballet background, some at the professional level, and that's because they've put in thousands of hours drilling at the barre, building exactly the fundamentals the follower role demands. Anyone unaware of this is simply betraying their ignorance of the requirements of the follower role. You like to complain about followers who "quit their training early," when in fact those that progress despite lacking a dance background do so because they spend hours drilling at home.
Tango as it crosses over with the relationships, seduction and sexuality
- Thread starter crazycanuck78
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opendoor
Forum Master
What? Ballet also is partner dance, and tango also is performance.
My first female tango teacher was a former prima ballerina in John Neumeier's famous ballet company. Former because splinter fractures increased, she had to stop. It was a stroke of luck that I found her. Somehow she was my physiotherapist, too. But she still cannot suppress her performance inclination. She is dancing a tango show with well-known orchestras every month. She also trained european participants in the preliminary rounds of of the tango mundiale in BSAs succesfully.
But we're [mostly] talking about social AT, not performance, or fantasia. I entirely agree with your sentiments about a choreographed routine, or someone who aspires to those heights, maybe in ballroom, but, from experience, it kills the social dance aspect that's still present in social AT.
I think you have to consider the possible objectives: Are we seeking to impress someone of the opposite sex? Attract the next partner for a tanda? Stand out from the crowd at a milonga? Have a set of 'worshippers' longing for that tanda with us? Impress some dance judges? Give enjoyment to an audience?
Maybe some of those are true, and we want to improve some aspect of our dance, which is why we have lessons. But it's not the day job!
Sure, there's merit in practising walking, ochos, pivots, enrosques, lapiz, etc. as elements. Call that a 'drill'. They're certainly not going to improve if you don't do them. Combine them together in some way as a warm-up routine. Better still with a mirror, and even better with someone who can tell you what's wrong and how to improve.
The main criticism is of learning some single sequence of elements as a 'drill', without understanding the elements and how they can be combined differently, or even with a change of timing and emphasis.
I'd qualify that a bit:
Ballet can be a solo dance, partner or group.
AT is primarily a partner dance. It can be social or a performance.
I too have had former ballet performers as AT teachers, and they do bring another element into teaching. I'd also say that they do also tend to think in terms of performance.
But, I've got to agree overall with the original: Ballet isn't tango (nor is it ballroom, although a version appears there). In specific circumstances it can be similar to ballet. But is that social AT?
opendoor
Forum Master
Difference between ballet and choreographed ballroom
I watch what I think are 100% choreographed ballroom dance performances, with only one couple dancing at a time. To me, these dances are no different from a fragment of a big ballet or musical. Do you see a difference?
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Why mention only followers here? A leader with poor balance, control and posture is just as unable to maintain a good connection or quality of movement.
opendoor
Forum Master
Because the ladies weakest point is the foot (on heels anyway). While with the gents it is also a mental problem
JournalInTime
Forum Master
My coach is in fact a former ballet dancer, as was one of my other private teachers. I found what they had to show me about drills for specific physical capabilities very useful. But I'm not talking about that – I'm talking about people drilling patterns, sequences, and whole choreographies. I really thought I made that clear in my earlier posts!
What I am (was) saying: Drills can help with strength, flexibility, and other physical attributes, and with the individual movement fragments you use to construct your steps. Ballet is as good as tango here. But drills cannot help with improvising to music you didn't choose with a partner you do not know. Tango practice is what you need here.
What I am not (was not) saying: All drills are terrible. Don't do them. Ballet is useless to tango dancers. Ignore it.
I can't make it clearer.
Yes, that is exactly what I mean!
Social tango certainly benefits from both partners being quick, flexible, stable, strong, etc. and knowing how to execute steps, pivots, and such well! But it doesn't benefit from either partner drilling long chains of movements until those sequences spill out without thinking, because that's practically the antithesis of improvisation, and social tango is 100% improvised.
I'm aware that tango escenario is rarely improvised, and that many of its greatest players are former ballet dancers. But that's unrelated to anything I was talking about.
Precisely so . . . I'm glad somebody read the words I wrote. You drill fragments and then practice stringing them into improvisations. You don't drill sequences and then hammer them like square pegs into round holes.
This is laughable. There was a dance-forums newbie a few months ago, and he's now taking ballet 6x a week. I've seen one of his recent progress videos, and I'll wager that in not too long he'll progress past all the forum masters here. In fact, if there were one thing most tango dancers could do to improve their dance, it would be to take ballet classes.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
Did you read what I wrote?
I specifically didn't say what you think I said. I said the opposite.
Ah, I see. I apologize for misunderstanding.
This depends to a some extent on the class. A lot of the attributes carry over, and ballet - because its main framework has been for a long time to teach - has a extremely well developed system of actually effectively training people. And that is something that tango very much lacks. But on the other had some of the deep mechanics and movement logic is almost opposite. The way ballet structures the body, especially in terms of where and how to dissociate and how the legs are connected to the core, is quite different than how tango structures the body. Some modern dance technique seems to match better - e.g. in my experience dancers that have a background in graham technique have a much easier time with tango technique than dancers used to classical ballet technique. (i would guess that everything that is concerned with expressing a connection to the ground works - bellydance seems to translate well, as does brazilian samba. I have only danced with one follower who did indian dance, so i don't know if it generalizes, but the way she organized her body worked very well for tango, too)
If i were to suggest one thing that tango dancers should study to improve their dance it would be judo or some other style of stand up grappling - tango teaching in general does not seem to have a great toolkit to teach people how being grounded and being sensitive and working with ones own and ones partners axes within dynamic movement actually works, and people are just expected to somehow figure this out.
Another view would be that ballet is the most common training path that young women who enjoy dance and movement are exposed to. Basically in all performance/movement disciplines most of the female professionals will have a serious ballet background - this is as true tango dancers as it is for stunt women or yoga teachers. It is the biggest pool of people with a interest in movement (and also one of the more ruthless ones in weeding people out with injuries and size/shape requirements. I know quite a few people who were once on the path of professional ballet and then grew too much/in the wrong way to continue there).
I am not saying that ballet is not a great discipline, but i think the reason that it is so common as a first discipline for a lot of dancers is more in its availability and mature pedagogy than in a unique usefulness as a foundation discipline for other movement disciplines.
This is similarly how a large percentage of martial artists got their start in modern teakwondo, a discipline that is considered one of the worse foundation disciplines because the attributes and habits required to be successful in their competitions don't translate all that well.
I don't think it really matters that much exactly which discipline one has done before - it's still a large advantage over not having done any.