Tango Diaries

[TTanguero]

That sounds very funny.

It can be, if you're not on the floor with them at the time ...

 

[opendoor]

It can be, if you're not on the floor with them at the time ...

Nowadays tango studios no longer have dark, cozy corners for petting.

 

[JournalInTime]

after learning to lead the cross just from walking

Or from nil – with the follower on either leg (doesn't matter which), breathe in, suspend, move the free leg into cross (front or back) with a slight circular "stirring" gesture of the torso, and release suspension with the breath. This works on either side, crossing front or back.

I am certain that this is the best way to teach crosses. That way, nobody thinks it innately privileges either side of the abrazo or has the character of always setting up a back step for the follower, or assumes that it's always tied to walking. The 8CB approach leads to the brusque cross that practically falls into a back step for the follower instead of being a resting position that can be undone and redone, doubled, pivoted, spiraled, taken off axis, etc. to create a large part of the tango vocabulary.

The worst are these people who think that anything that starts with sidestep-front step-front step has to be a cross, or who auto-cross – led or not – on 5. Those are wretched habits that take about a month to learn and 5 years to unlearn.

 

[Brummbaer]

Or from nil – with the follower on either leg

I am certain that this is the best way to teach crosses.

Yes, we do that 'spiral cross', but I'd consider that control difficult for beginners. But it would be a good exercise. Some even find the cross from walking difficult given momentum (which you shouldn't need). Depends on time and dedication. I don't think beginners would consider a spiral cross to be 'dance'.

 

[JournalInTime]

Yes, we do that 'spiral cross', but I'd consider that control difficult for beginners.

At the same time, it teaches so much at once: weight shifts, verticality (suspension/grounding), all four possible cross placements (R to F & B, L to F & B), the basics of spiral movement, etc., all of which are often taught as separate things. It also makes the commonest ocho and turn entrances, the ocho cortado, the most common volcadas, etc. little postscripts to things already learned, not separate movements to be learned as if they were unrelated. I'd be curious as to whether teaching the movement elements separately and having to teach the follow-up vocabulary separately wouldn't take more time than just teaching this from Day One. That said . . .

Depends on time and dedication. I don't think beginners would consider a spiral cross to be 'dance'.

. . . there is this. Some people aren't willing to practice a basic movement concept over and over until they get the trick of it, and some people limit their view of "dancing" to visible, horizontal movement and exclude subtle, vertical movement. I suppose it's a case of "Teacher, know they student."

 

[JournalInTime]

it's a case of "Teacher, know they student."

In my case, I found the 8CB extremely counterintuitive, as I had 6 different teachers giving me 6 different sets of tips: "Create more distance on this front step than that one," "You have to step a bit outside," "The timing changes," "It's about how you resolve your walk in front of your follower," etc. Then there were the ones blathering about how it had to start on 1 and end on 8, with the cross on 5, strongly implying that a cross had to be planned in two measures, at least. And the followers interpreting the momentum of the two front steps as a signal to leave the cross immediately after crossing.

Then this one teacher said, "Well, your goal is to put the free foot in front of the supporting one. Why not just breathe, lift the free foot, and move it there with a little twitch of your torso? That way, you can place it on any note in the measure, and your partner won't feel an impulse to walk out until you give it." That is what worked for me. I was pretty close to giving up tango over the 8CB when I had this life-saving reveal that "cross" is a movement element you can use to mark any note, and can even be an endpoint rather than a shifty transition to more walking.

More recently, a visiting (very well known, even famous) salon couple just assumed this latter method was how people here crossed, and had to blow 30 minutes of a 180-minute seminar teaching people to drop the 8CB approach and "just cross." Also, they said that suspend-cross-release wasn't even the simplest cross, and proceeded to show that the simplest cross was, from neutral with weight 50/50 for both partners, just for both to pivot on two feet until both were crossed. They were really shocked that people had to prance around for 4 steps just to cross.

 

[Brummbaer]

At the same time, it teaches so much at once: weight shifts, verticality (suspension/grounding), all four possible cross placements (R to F & B, L to F & B), the basics of spiral movement, etc., all of which are often taught as separate things

I agree. I just think it's beyond beginners who are looking to 'dance'. I can find so-called 'advanced' dancers for whom it's a novel concept.

I dislike the 8CB as a dance step. Nevertheless, if the elements are taught well, it's a basis, albeit abused as a paso básico. It also gives 'positions', like ballet positions, as a reference. It should come later, almost as an aside, after learning the elements it contains. I don't think it's the step which is the problem; it's the teachers.

 

[lucia_l]

I know it isn't their intention at all, but man would I feel bad if I were invited by a person wearing that badge; I would think that I'm only being invited because I'm one of the leftovers after the initial rounds of cabeceo. Just because roles have to be balanced...

At an imbalanced social, I'd rather dance than worry about whether I was only asked because I'm "left over". So what if I'm "left over"? At least I'm dancing instead of sitting at a dance.

But then, I've on on record that if I were suddenly single and in need of being asked, I'd ask around for a taxi dancer to hire. I could instruct him to be willing to dance with other ladies if I do get asked to dance by others. There's no point in going to a dance and not dancing out of some false sense of pride.

 

[opendoor]

...I'd rather dance than worry about whether I was.. "left over"..

I can understand pianist's not to be "left over" sentiment very well, but from a different perspective. During a specific phase of my life, the tango community was my family. It's not about dancing then; it's about socialization. I can only speak for myself: I was on the dance floor seven days a week: groups and privates in the afternoons, milongas at night. Dancing was the ticket to a new community. And this community wasn't the entire population of all tango dancers in my city. No, behind it lies an invisible subgroup into which one strives to integrate. In my case (leader), the requirement was 50% coolness and 50% skill. And by skill, I mean dancing in the same category as professionals. Every dance on the social dance floor felt like a competition feels for ballroomers. It's definitely not about enjoyment and immersion, it's about performance.

 

[Paja]

I agree. I just think it's beyond beginners who are looking to 'dance'. I can find so-called 'advanced' dancers for whom it's a novel concept.

I dislike the 8CB as a dance step. Nevertheless, if the elements are taught well, it's a basis, albeit abused as a paso básico. It also gives 'positions', like ballet positions, as a reference. It should come later, almost as an aside, after learning the elements it contains. I don't think it's the step which is the problem; it's the teachers.

Agree. My recepie for beginners is 6CB - baldosa. They need some frame, safe base to return from figures. And if they have such frame, they can start to hang new things to this frame. And is usefull for them to name steps as 1, 2, 3.. Even total begginers then can make steps to music and dance.
If I dance with someone new on Milonga, I make simple test, step aside with my left and I lead front cross - ocho cortado as simple as could be. 90% of ladies do backstep with left leg, instead of cross, because they automatically expect step 3 if they made step 2 before (8CB counting). And I have to ask them, do you fell I lead you to backstep? No. So why you do this? I always make this step. So now and with me not, do not expect anything, just relax and accept my lead. And voila, they can make very nice front cross. Beautifull especially if it is properly placed into wals rhytm. They are amazed, wow, what nice feeling!
Even if 8CB is not popular, still lot of teachers use it and carve this pattern into brains of dancers.

 

[lucia_l]

I can understand pianist's not to be "left over" sentiment very well, but from a different perspective. During a specific phase of my life, the tango community was my family. [...] Dancing was the ticket to a new community. [...]No, behind it lies an invisible subgroup into which one strives to integrate. [...]

I guess I've never been that desperate to integrate into some community. I took up ballroom dancing because I wanted to learn to dance. There is a social community or, more accurately communities and I enjoy it. But it doesn't "country club-like" or "clique" with "in" people and "out" people. If you go to a set of social dance events regularly, you are automatically sort of 'in' the community. I think almost no one in the social ballroom, country, WCS, salsa, bachata etc communities would mind if you hired a taxi dancer.

I'd rather dance than sit. And if there was a cliquie community, my view toward them would be "so what?" I go to dance socials of various sorts because I just wanna dance! Judge me; don't judge me. I don't care whether I've "made it" into your "alpha" or "in" crowd.

I do recognize that to some extent, being invited means someone thinks you are potentially fun to dance with. So I would think for most people that's the reason you might feel a little bummed. But I also know being seen as a good dancer not the only reason you aren't asked. Heck, bringing the taxi dancer might tend to make you get fewer invitations because people know your dance card is to some extent "full". The same happens if you bring a husband or boyfriend who dances. This is not a slam on your dancing nor evidence you aren't "one of the alpha crowd."

But I guess if the reason someone feels bad because they aren't invited is they feel they aren't "one of the alpha crowd", then ok. That aspect wouldn't make me feel bad.

 

[JournalInTime]

I took up ballroom dancing because I wanted to learn to dance.

Some of us took up AT for the same reason!

I had no interest in joining a club that acted and dressed a certain way, flew between expensive festivals, and spent time in Buenos Aires whenever possible. When I began, such people struck me as pretentious, and possibly engaging in cultural appropriation ("Ginette" and "Jean-Marc" who speak no Spanish and whose life revolves around La Belle Province aren't fooling anyone).

Since I just wanted to learn to dance, I chose a studio (1) because it was close, and far more important (2) because it had mirrors, barres, and teachers with real dance degrees who counted ". . . and 5, 6, 7, 8" and made me do lots of drills. I knew that such a place would teach me good dance basics useful in any style of dance, which is what I wanted – not membership in some Buenos Aires social club. In the 12 1/2 years since, I've consistently avoided picking teachers and coaches just because they're Argentine. I make sure they've been certified at a proper dance academy and danced for a living, and I don't particularly care if their studies and work were in AT or, say, ballet or contemporary.

People who just want to learn to dance are numerous in AT, too. We just tend to be badly overshadowed by The Club.

If you go to a set of social dance events regularly, you are automatically sort of 'in' the community.

Exactly.

I show up alone 4 times in 5 because my girlfriend and partner has medical considerations that preclude long, late nights of physical activity. I sit alone, often putting my dance bag or jacket on any other chair at my table, if I have one, to send a message. Yet I dance every tanda that I don't use for a shirt change or water break. And mostly it's me who's invited, not doing the inviting.

I rarely dance with the people in The Club, but their importance is grossly overrated and mostly in their head. I dance mainly with people who have a general dance education. One of my favorite partners has danced folkloric dance for 60+ years (since she could walk), another is an ex-ballerina who took up tango to stay active, and yet another is a champion salsera . . . and none of them are tangueras d'origine.

I'd rather dance than sit. And if there was a cliquie community, my view toward them would be "so what?"

Exactly!

Judge me; don't judge me. I don't care whether I've "made it" into your "alpha" or "in" crowd.

Same. And yes, I often feel judged. There's at least one tango studio that I avoid because I can sit all night and be ignored by The Club. It would be masochistic of me to go there when my city offers alternatives every evening. When the regulars of that place come to where I dance, they definitely give me these looks like, "Wait, why does he get to dance all evening here while I sit?" Neener-neener.

I also know being seen as a good dancer not the only reason you aren't asked.

Indeed, it rarely has much to do with dance skill. I am studying movement and dance instruction with my coach. I am learning how to analyze dancers. I can say for sure that a lot of The Club are not good dancers in any objective sense. They affect a very good AT "look," but they have postural flaws and, worse, tend to be stamped out as if mass produced – there appears to be no desire to stand out, look different, invent.

One of the great unspoken truths of AT is that it has a mythos that lets those who cannot thrive as general dancers with good basics independent of style, and who have no athleticism or technique, fall back on "It's a dance of the people! You don't need lessons for this." Yeah, right.

 

[TTanguero]

I rarely dance with the people in The Club, but their importance is grossly overrated

I think there's often an assumption that the people who dance most are in the cliques, but my experience is that it's often pure happenstance. For example, there were milongas with a lot of students from my beginner or intermediate classes, and I could dance all night at them.

A first-time visitor who was a way better dancer might struggle simply because all the regulars have a lot of people on their dance cards. So it's not always snobbishness.

 

[JournalInTime]

A first-time visitor who was a way better dancer might struggle simply because all the regulars have a lot of people on their dance cards. So it's not always snobbishness.

Quite true. More than once I've had someone call me a snob because I've danced, say, 18 tandas with 18 different people who weren't them. What those people missed was that the only thing those 18 people had in common was that I knew them. They weren't a clique in any usual sense, unless someone seriously wants to say that I have the sort of persona that causes a clique to form . . . which would be bizarre given my life experiences as an outsider 99 times in 100.

 

[Rabbit]

One of the great unspoken truths of AT is that it has a mythos that lets those who cannot thrive as general dancers with good basics independent of style, and who have no athleticism or technique, fall back on "It's a dance of the people! You don't need lessons for this." Yeah, right.

Actually, the myth is that you need a lot of lessons in AT specifically