Tango Diaries

[JournalInTime]

That's what my partner calls the "walking-dead style": an extremely upright, fixed-height dance with minimal forward intention ("lean"), few changes of axis, and few vertical movements/changes of level; a fixed rather than sliding or breathing, and also slightly flat, embrace; more communication and energy exchange in the front body than in the back body; slow progress along the line of dance, approaching a slowly drifting slot dance rather than a striding dance; more turns that are walked than pivoted by the leader, and a lack of leader pivots in general; and many associated (flat) rather than dissociated (spiral) leader movement, placing the bulk of the labor of dissociation on the follower, who often responds by crossing rather than pivoting in turns. That does not describe everyone visible, and of course I'm not there in person! But from this snapshot, it looks to be the tendency – "the vibe," as it were. If my eye is poor, that's on me.

Whereas when my partner and I dance, we use what our coach calls an "inverted ice-cream cone" posture, with significantly more distance between us at the floor than higher up, but with regular axis changes in both directions (from volcada, through upright, to colgadita or "social colgada"). We embrace very tightly but roundly, not flatly, using our backs as much as our fronts, and with our closed-side arms sliding to open and close distance for expression, as well as to facilitate such things as her overpivots and sacadas. The basis of our dance is forward momentum, using a high-push walk and maximum leg projection, and often adding displacement to non-walking movements so that they progress. When we cannot progress, we often express the music in place with axis changes and level shifts. About half of my turns, the ones that don't move down the line of dance, have me pivoting/spinning rather than walking, dissociating more than my partner does to generate power, and almost all of our turns have her pivoting, not crossing.

I am not judging one as being better than the other! I am just saying there's what we like to do, and then there's a version of what other people like to do that isn't to my partner's taste. In point of fact, I'm a lot more patient about the first style above than she is, but I dance for her.

 

[itwillhappen]

Whereas when my partner and I dance, we use what our coach calls an "inverted ice-cream cone" posture, with significantly more distance between us at the floor than higher up, but with regular axis changes in both directions (from volcada, through upright, to colgadita or "social colgada"). We embrace very tightly but roundly, not flatly, using our backs as much as our fronts, and with our closed-side arms sliding to open and close distance for expression, as well as to facilitate such things as her overpivots and sacadas. The basis of our dance is forward momentum, using a high-push walk and maximum leg projection, and often adding displacement to non-walking movements so that they progress. When we cannot progress, we often express the music in place with axis changes and level shifts. About half of my turns, the ones that don't move down the line of dance, have me pivoting/spinning rather than walking, dissociating more than my partner does to generate power, and almost all of our turns have her pivoting, not crossing.

For comparability, it would be helpful to watch a video of an event where a significant portion of those present are dancing like this.

 

[JournalInTime]

For comparability, it would be helpful to watch a video of an event where a significant portion of those present are dancing like this.

I'd love to find one, but understand that the first paragraph in my previous post describes a common style at an event, while the second describes a personal style . . . I doubt that a video of everyone dancing that way exists (and my partner is extremely private for her own personal and professional reasons, and has asked me never to share videos of just us online). However, it's less a specific style and more a uniformity of style that I'm talking about here. Googling "milonga in Montréal" would find videos showing the diversity of style at our weekly events, and I suppose that I find such diversity more energizing to dance around, flaws in floorcraft notwithstanding.

I'd compare it to the audience at a symphony performance, politely seated and clapping only at the correct, etiquette-approved moments, and that at a rock concert, dancing and carrying on. I can appreciate both, but the latter engages me more than the former, because it seems more "real" and "alive." Performative correctness is not something I have in my character. I'm fond of challenging norms and being challenged, even if sometimes the challenges frustrate me.

 

[opendoor]

..the first paragraph in my previous post describes a common style at an event, while the second describes a personal style . . .

Basically, you're dancing tango de salón, but without the V-embrace. Of course, that means you've removed the centerpiece and heart of this style. But everyone has to develop their own "personal style", after all. So in other words you are a fusion dancer!

 

[tangoing]

(As a preface) I don't have the complete overview anymore, but your observation contradicts my experience. And I don't want to defend anyone here; I myself have a classical orientation in tango.

The neo-tango scene has been home to experienced and long-serving dancers who are body-orientated, master of on- and off-axis movement, can dissociate and show a extreme degree of flexibility. There simply are only very few “easier for beginners“ around. There still is no significant trend towards rejuvenation in that scene. And I still constantly watch the footage, I know several neo-organizers, and my former girlfried ist a heavy neo-marathon addict.

Secondly, there's a significant overlap with the solo dance community. You're seriously underestimating their technical skills. Prior to judging, please try participating in Contact Improvisation or 5-Rhythms Dance.

I suspect you are comparing apples and oranges if you only look at the extreme outliers from either side of the respective distributions.

apparently this street tango / nuevo tango style has been growing in popularity in russia:

https://www.instagram.com/streettango.ru/

I personally think a lot of the show-ey movements looks sorta silly and forced, especially the lifts but that’s just me. As I get better in my own dance I’ve been getting used to spotting if dancers have that tango “push off the ground” weighted walk down, even if it’s inconsistent, and none of the vids i’ve seen have this (although to be fair only very advanced dancers + pros have this down in my experience).

there’s also some recent drama between that pavel guy who’s the leader of the street tango scene and sebastian arce but idk all the details

 

[tangoing]

I don't think it's common to see video footage from the smaller ones, and I have no idea how you would spot collaborative dance from the outside, but I would say that the dancing shown here, for example, is reasonably representative:

I feel like this is how I dance when there’s no space and/or with an older less advanced/mobile follower. Very boring to me but those followers love my close embrace. I need to figure out how to bridge the gap to make it more exciting for me under those conditions.

 

[opendoor]

..there’s also some recent drama between that pavel guy who’s the leader of the street tango scene and sebastian arce but..

Who is "Pavel guy" and whats the drama with Sebastián? Is it about style or politics? Would you be so kind and please summarize briefly? Many thx in advance!

..this is how I dance when there’s no space... Very boring to me..

But there actually was enough space.

 

[JournalInTime]

So in other words you are a fusion dancer!

Definitely! I think that if you read my posts here from the day I joined to present, you will see that I am very much not a purist. I regularly take a stance against "purism," "One True Way-ism," and appeals to stylistic tradition on cultural grounds.

My tango arc has seen me taking instruction from people who favor things we sometimes call "milonguero," "salon," "nuevo," "escenario," and "fantasia." I've never touched "ballroom," but I do sometimes swipe ballroom-style cadenas (or whatever ballroomers call rapid progressive turns). I've picked and chosen from all of those spice boxes to blend my own masala. Actually, we have: my partner's mix and mine aren't identical, so we dance a mixture of mixes (and she has a ballet-jazz background).

Moreover, our principal coach started in ballet, not tango, and has danced many styles, from salsa through samba de gafieira to blues, not to mention Scottish traditional dance and lots of nights at raves. She has repeatedly driven into our heads the idea that dance is dance, and that as long as it's on the music, it's unfair to criticize it as "wrong." At worst, it's "different."

So, yeah, I own that, warts and all.

there’s also some recent drama between that pavel guy who’s the leader of the street tango scene and sebastian arce but idk all the details

It's mostly about a perception that only Argentines really understand tango. Which might be true if you buy into appeals to stylistic purity on cultural grounds. On the other hand, Arce is no purist.

I feel like this is how I dance when there’s no space and/or with an older less advanced/mobile follower.

Exactly! I never said that I could not dance that way, only that I prefer not to. I can and do dance that way when there is no space. But in the video, there's 4-5 times as much space per couple as we get on a good night here, so I have difficulty understanding why it isn't being used. Maybe age/lack of mobility explains it . . . but I'm 58, so not a child, and still use that amount of space when I have it, even when I'm tired.

I need to figure out how to bridge the gap to make it more exciting for me under those conditions.

Complex musicality works for me. I can't fairly expect a less-mobile partner to fly all over the place with me, and I refuse to be the jerk who does that in a crowd, but that doesn't mean I can't feel the music as, say, 1-2-3-4-2-2-3-4-3-2-3-4-4-2-3-4 , mark most or all of the big, bold 1s, 2s, 3s, and 4s, and also mark "ands" on the little 3s and/or put syncopations on the little 2s and 4s. I find that a lot of partners and dance spaces support lots of tiny movements where they cannot or will not support a few large ones.

Of course, if "exciting" means flying and dynamism, I think we're out of luck.

 

[tangoing]

Who is "Pavel guy" and whats the drama with Sebastián? Is it about style or politics? Would you be so kind and please summarize briefly? Many thx in advance!

But there actually was enough space.

He’s the guy who owns that ig account + related russian street tango accounts.
Apparently there was some incident where sebastian came into a russian milonga (he lives in russia now apparently) awhile ago and was rude and there was some incident that happened (from his point of view) and pavel was going to address this in his podcast, but maybe the wording of how he was going to go about it was attacking sebastian’s character etc and there’s lots of fb drama over it in russian/spanish and other languages, along with the topic of what tango really is and how only argentines understand it like what Journal said etc. All this was in the past week.

From my own pov and experience, most older famous tango “maestros” are egomaniacs, I mean look at the gustavo and ruben controversies in the past 2 years, so there probably is some truth to the allegations.

Yup there is space in that vid so i wouldn’t dance like that if I had that much space.

 

[Bailango]

The neo-tango scene has been home to experienced and long-serving dancers who are body-orientated, master of on- and off-axis movement, can dissociate and show a extreme degree of flexibility.

Locally that was never the case. There were good neuvo dancers about 15 years back. But as the traditional tango started trending again, I haven’t seen any good neuvo dancers. The old ones have disappeared. Either left the area or stopped dancing.

Only a few had mastered it enough to be good. It requires similar type of training regime that a good performer would need. As we know a lot of tango dancers are casual and not dedicated to put in that amount of effort.

There still is no significant trend towards rejuvenation in that scene.

Yeah that scene has not been to arrest its decline.

Secondly, there's a significant overlap with the solo dance community. You're seriously underestimating their technical skills. Prior to judging, please try participating in Contact Improvisation or 5-Rhythms Dance.

I think the point was younger dancer it attracts do not have the skills.

 

[opendoor]

..there’s lots of fb drama over.. the topic of what tango really is and how only argentines understand it like what..

Thanks for explaining! But, how arrogant of him. However, tango isn't inherently an Argentinian dance; it originates exclusively from the La Plata estuary. Tango wasn't known where Sebastián was born.

 

[opendoor]

Yeah that scene has not been to arrest its decline...

However, the tango-style waves are somewhat staggered in time across different regions. Therefore, the head of this animal will rise again somewhere.

 

[itwillhappen]

However, it's less a specific style and more a uniformity of style that I'm talking about here. Googling "milonga in Montréal" would find videos showing the diversity of style at our weekly events, and I suppose that I find such diversity more energizing to dance around, flaws in floorcraft notwithstanding.

You have to make a choice. Encuentros are a European approach to achieving an orderly ronda and close embrace through selection and travel. Compared to the Buenos Aires approach in appropriate milongas, which relies on travel and social pressure by the organizer, this has its advantages and disadvantages. No other successful approaches are known so far; all the lamenting from the elites in metropolises like Montréal and London is of no use. Those who want creativity must accept a certain degree of chaos and jostling in reality.

It's also, as the waiting lists clearly show, a more woman-friendly tango. That's what it looks like when the "do less, listen more" paradigm for leaders is widely implemented. In addition, there's now a more upright posture ("own axis") and a slight distance in the chest area ("flexibility").

Don't get me wrong, your style largely corresponds to my own preferences, even if I invest far fewer resources in it. And I have the ideal life partner for it. But the current trend is definitely going into the other direction.

 

[opendoor]

.."do less, listen more" paradigm for leaders is widely implemented…

I've never heard of that before. And why does it point at leaders? On the contrary, I observe that followers can't stand the silence, don't want to celebrate the moment, and take action instead of stopping time.

 

[itwillhappen]

Dear Diary,

last year I attended a multi-day musicality workshop. The workshop focused much on the new role of the follower, namely independent interpretation of proposals, equal participation in the dance, and so on.
At the end, I asked with the world-renowned teacher and performer what the corresponding new role of the leader would be. The answer was essentially: "do less, listen more".
Well, I can understand that followers don't want to be pushed around by mediocre leaders. Whether this new role will be attractive to leading men, however, remains to be seen.