Tango Diaries

As is to be expected some of the good teachers and instructors may not be aesthetically most pleasing social dancers.

It is a good point, but it is not my point, I should have been less circumspect; I cannot see the quality of movement that I expect from all teachers. Never mind overall aesthetics, I don't think a teacher without good movement technique (I refer to the basics of course, not in more complex movements) and too much stiffness (~= poor understanding of muscle relaxation and control of body tension) should even be teaching.

And they aren't social dancers, not by my reckoning, considering how little I saw them when I was at most of the milongas in that city whenever I was there; I saw their teachers way more. Some of my friends over there say the same too.
 
So your unique selling point will be quality of movement? I would appreciate!
Not sure it'll be truly unique, since my coach the Pilates and yoga instructor already offers this. But as far as I know, few men who dance mostly as leaders offer this. It's heavily heaped on the female and follower sides of the dance around here. The question also stands as to whether I can do it . . . I'm 57 years old, which may make my goal overambitious. I guess we'll see.
 
You can't see the quality of movement; you only can feel it. It's not an aesthetic matter.
Very, very true!

Understanding this statement is part of what's necessary to move forward with one's tango. Until one starts to realize that all of the highest values of tango are completely hidden within a couple – breathing leads and responses, comfort of embrace, connection, intention, micro-musicality that produces no macro-movement, quality of movement, etc. – one is stuck on what one can see when one is not in the couple. That's entirely reasonable as a gauge of a performer, but it's nearly worthless for gauging someone's social dance skills.

When I am at a milonga where I know very few people, the thing I look for prior to making my icebreaker invitation is which tanguera provokes the most smiles, even laughs from her partners. That tells me that it's pretty consistently the case that dancing in a couple with her is a positive experience, even if I have no idea why. On the other hand, I don't pay much attention to the various princesses and queens parading around their high leg movements and embellishments, because that's showing off for those outside the couple, and not something I give the smallest d**n about.
 
Other thing I have noticed is that the better and more meticulous an instructor is, less students they tend to attract [....] The better instructors attract less of students because most dancers feel they aren’t learning useful, when these instructors insist on having good technique, musicality, floorcraft, etc.
I've noticed all of this, too. I believe that to a large extent this is because exceptional instructors require their students to work, insist on often frustrating but also effective exercises and drills, and return to "basic" topics every so many sessions to refine them further. They emphasize developing posture, technique, connection, intention, and other things that are neither as visible as vocabulary nor as artistic as musicality . . . they trust their students to invent the two latter things as part of feeling the music, and provide them with the tools to build with and the foundation to build on.

I mean, I totally understand the appeal of "All The World's Colgadas, With Maestra Q. Maestra And Maestro K. Maestro!", but to quote one of my better instructors, those are lessons in how to annoy everybody else at the milonga with poorly understood steps danced off the music, and then defend it by claiming that you learned it from great masters.
 
Love your posts, keep them coming!
When I am at a milonga where I know very few people, the thing I look for prior to making my icebreaker invitation is which tanguera provokes the most smiles, even laughs from her partners. That tells me that it's pretty consistently the case that dancing in a couple with her is a positive experience, even if I have no idea why.
:)
I don't pay much attention to the various princesses and queens parading around their high leg movements and embellishments, because that's showing off for those outside the couple, and not something I give the smallest d**n about.
I'm sure there are people who do embellishments for show, but I'm sure that is not the only reason.
  • Fun!
  • Another way to express musicality, enabling a 50/50 dance where the follower can express musicality beyond a simple, strict following of the lead. Sometimes a follower will embellish on another instrument than the macro lead, that's great fun. Another example I like is I do double time, and the follower does quadruple time, for something like a rock step.
  • Advertising "Hey, I'm a more advanced follower, please invite me next!"
  • My dear wife does embellishments, even if there is no audience.
  • Followers often embellish even if everyone is dancing and there is no sitting audience.
 
You can’t see how good someone is, but I think you can see how bad they are. I.e someone leading entirely with arms, no leg drive in any of their steps, hunched posture, no disassociation, etc.
For sure.

I think the sort of people we are here – willing to burn endless electrons discussing every aspect of tango to death – take "stands tall, pushes off the floor, leads with full-body spirals and never just the arms" and similar things as a baseline. Not having all of that and much more would be an instant deal-breaker for any teacher and probably for most potential dance partners. As you imply, "good" builds on top of that, and mostly in ways that you cannot see, at least not in the way you can see "bad."

My standards are something like:

Very Bad: Guilty of more than two or three of staring at partner, head tilt, no top-to-bottom body spiral in circular movements, pure arm-leading, pulling, pushing, hanging, hunching, forward collapse (no back activation), back lean (other than maybe in certain colgadas, but even then), always rocking back before stepping, no floor push, always dancing on tiptoes (never using the full foot), stepping from the knee down (or, really, from anywhere below the top of the buttocks), stiff legs (no knee softness or bend), linear steps across partner's lines when curved steps around partner's body would better maintain distance, wobbling when on one leg (leading to emergency touchdowns of the free foot), and a few other things. Or guilty of even one of those things to such a degree that the dance is difficult or painful regardless of all the rest!​
Bad: Consistently guilty of one or two of the things under Very Bad, but not to such an extent that the dance is difficult or painful – it's merely not fun.​
Average: Doesn't consistently do any of the things under Very Bad, but might backslide on bad days, when jostled by another couple, or otherwise not at 100%. Even then, errors don't manifest intensely enough to ruin the dance, and might even provoke a laugh.​
Good: As Average, but when you dance with them, they exhibit a few of a comfortable embrace, instant initial connection, no loss of ongoing connection, intention toward you in all movements (so you know where all of their body parts are at all times), ability to generate 100% of their own momentum without donations, musicality, interesting (counter-)proposals, ability to shift axis (on/off, shared/individual), no loss of technique across a good-sized vocabulary, ability to send and receive micro-movements (even just breathing), and a few other things.​
Very Good: Most or all of the stuff under Good – or a small subset of the things under Good to such a high degree that you don't even notice the things that they don't have!​

I put myself at Average, with perhaps slightly more Good days than Bad ones. My partners may disagree! But I don't think that from the outside, anybody can tell whether I'm Average, Good, or Very Good, only that I'm not Bad or Very Bad (I hope!).



Floorcraft sits outside this, because it's so damned controversial. For leaders, I'd have a separate scale similar to the above for it and rate them at the lower of the above scale and the floorcraft scale. I'm currently in a debate about this with some leaders I know personally, who feel that floorcraft isn't organic to the dance and represents not "being a better dancer" but "being better at sacrificing creativity for social acceptance." I disagree, but the existence of debate leads me to make this note.
 
Love your posts, keep them coming!
Thank you.
I'm sure there are people who do embellishments for show, but I'm sure that is not the only reason.
Oh, I agree. I just find that a significant percentage, probably a slight majority, do it for one reason you gave:

  • Advertising "Hey, I'm a more advanced follower, please invite me next!"
I definitely qualify that as "for show." It bugs me mostly because it doesn't really advertise an advanced follower, just one who focused on embellishments. When I find out that their ornaments are at higher level than, say, their molinete or embrace, it's profoundly disappointing.

Also, this one:
  • Another way to express musicality, enabling a 50/50 dance where the follower can express musicality beyond a simple, strict following of the lead. Sometimes a follower will embellish on another instrument than the macro lead, that's great fun. Another example I like is I do double time, and the follower does quadruple time, for something like a rock step.
. . . is totally valid, but it matters to me less because of the way I lead. Owing to my commitment to what I've often called proposal/counter-proposal dancing, which is a full conversation where the lead is a suggestion to an active follower, and nothing more, followers have many more fundamental ways to get 50/50, up to and including rereading or redirecting the lead. So, I'm maybe innately prone to not seeing ornaments as quite as important.
 
I'm sure there are people who do embellishments for show, but I'm sure that is not the only reason.

Typically if the music is rhythmical or dramatic, I do a lot of leader embellishments even if no one's watching for musical expression / fun reasons. I also don't believe that I should make my partner do everything. That would be too controlling.

I don't need to advertise, I think my dance skills and philosophy are obvious anyway
 
- at practicas or milongas?
- in small community (less than hundred dancers and maybe one milonga per week) or large community (more than few hundred active dancers and several milongas per week)?
- friends/acquaintances or strangers?

Aren’t those guided practicas? You can ask those leading practicas to dance with you and help you troubleshoot. That is my understanding of guided practicas. They could be led by instructors or an experienced dancers.
  • At practicas
  • Mostly a small community where the people are friends, but I have also found it to work in several out-of-state classes/practicas I have done, with instructors I had never met.
  • For whatever reason, there were very few guided practicas in my old little area. The instructors very often would chat rather than practice with students, the vast bulk of the practicing was student with student.
Rare, but I have also run up to instructors after a lesson to quick show them something I wasn't sure they knew or a twist on what they were instructing. So far that has gone well.
 
...but I think you can see how bad they are. I.e someone leading entirely with arms..
Sorry, I would strongly disagree with that: there's nothing wrong with arm leading. The context of this thread is the quality of movement. And this means that arm lead and torso movements are consistent and do not contradict each other !
..no leg drive in any of their steps..
Sorry, you must have made a mistake there too. If I interpret "leg drive" literally, it sounds more like downright poor movement quality. In tango, the movement never originates from the legs.
 
Sorry, I would strongly disagree with that: there's nothing wrong with arm leading. The context of this thread is the quality of movement. And this means that arm lead and torso movements are consistent and do not contradict each other !

Sorry, you must have made a mistake there too. If I interpret "leg drive" literally, it sounds more like downright poor movement quality. In tango, the movement never originates from the legs.
You missed the keyword “entirely”. Leading entirely with arms is generally bad.

Lots of movements originates from the leg. Hence so many teachers repeat the whole “push off the ground” mantra. You can even say even using your back comes from the energy that originates from the ground through to your hip to your back.

The more you post the more it shows how completely different your tango/milonga experiences are from everyone else, i.e how everyone at your milonga will openly help a beginner lead, how you’re against learning from teachers, or you think salsa is harder than tango, etc.
 

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