Tango Diaries

[ArbeeNYC]

That's entirely reasonable as a gauge of a performer, but it's nearly worthless for gauging someone's social dance skills.

Depends. I think you can determine a lot by looking at how a couple dances (the leader primarily) and how they match what they are doing to the music. How they integrate with the line of dance. How smooth their movements are. Whether or not the leader manhandles the follower. Does he jerk his arm about wildly. That sort of thing.

 

[JournalInTime]

Depends. I think you can determine a lot by looking at how a couple dances (the leader primarily) and how they match what they are doing to the music. How they integrate with the line of dance. How smooth their movements are. Whether or not the leader manhandles the follower. Does he jerk his arm about wildly. That sort of thing.

Agreed, but I also believe that all of those things fall into the realm of, "Well, not bad, but who can say for good?"

 

[Bailango]

I cannot see the quality of movement that I expect from all teachers.

But how do you discern that unless you actually dance with them? Either in a class, or a practica, or a milonga.

Rest I agree.

 

[Tango Distance]

I've been in classes where they taught this technique of going backwards a little bit before going forwards (or slightly shifting right before taking a left step etc), to produce a slight rolling sensation ( I think even a chicho workshop mentioned this), but it wouldn't be used as a normal/default step.

The figure shows a prolate cycloid that illustrates the idea.

• I totally get it for side steps. You go right a bit to unweight the left foot, and then step with the left foot. Up means feet together, and down means feet apart. Once I learned that in a class, I could lead as many side steps in a row as I wanted, even with raw beginners. Before, I could only get 1 step.
• I get it for split weight forward or back steps. For example, leader steps forward 1/3 of the size of a normal step and leaves the foot there, goes back a bit to unweight that foot, then steps 2/3 of a step, goes back a bit, and then steps 3/3 of a step. Same story, I can lead this with beginners with this trick.
• What I don't get is why you'd do it when you are taking a regular step. The best I have come up with is it is a way to communicate a step is about to start, but not intrinsically necessary for leading a regular step. Is there another reason for doing it for a regular forward step?

https://www.desmos.com/calculator/jhmp5zn1py Prolate Cycloid with modified parameters.

 

[opendoor]

You missed the keyword “entirely”. Leading entirely with arms is generally bad.

Sorry, I missed that. And admitted I react a little allergic to that general arm lead bashing!

..Lots of movements originates from the leg. Hence so many teachers repeat the whole “push off the ground” mantra. You can even say even using your back comes from the energy that originates from the ground through to your hip to your back.

I can almost agree in this differentiated form. However, the momentum, as you now also write, comes out of the foot ("push off"). The leg only transmits the energy. And before that moment, when a step is projected, the lower back and pelvis twist. This way the energy is generated, not in the legs. This is the only way to go smoothly and without bobbing. Anatomically seen, its a form of spiral dynamics. Feel free to explain it your teachers.

..The more you post the more it shows how completely different your tango/milonga experiences are from everyone else..

I also know scenes, milongas and teachers as you know them. But I'm actively looking for the places where the world is still okay. Fortunately, the scene in my city is quite large. Dancers has an active role in shaping their community. Don't leave the tango to others!

 

[opendoor]

......cannot see the quality of movement that I expect from all teachers.

But how do you discern that unless you actually dance with them?

I currently don't know any tango teachers from London, pianistamediano. But two years ago, I suggested Maral Kojayan (then Tango-Garden, Tango-Fever), with whom I had often danced socially at festivals. She has a extremely high quality of movement and, as an Alexander Technique practitioner, can also convey and teach this. (Today she works as a psychotherapist in Rotterdam.)
You rejected my suggestion in horror just because she was a stage dancer and you didn't like her clientele either.
But with such blinders, you won't find dancers with high quality of movement.

 

[JournalInTime]

The figure shows a prolate cycloid that illustrates the idea.

You speak my language.

• What I don't get is why you'd do it when you are taking a regular step.

Exactly! Speaking as a leader:

For regular forward steps – say, marching to Pugliese when one has lots of space – one pushes off the floor with the weight-bearing leg without letting the torso fall back over that leg, projects the torso forward, arrives on the free leg, and transfers, over and over. The torso advances smoothly and inexorably; it should never pause in a way that would feel like stops or hiccups to the follower, and it definitely should not recoil due to weight falling back on the supporting leg as one pushes, which to any follower who is more than half awake would lead a rocking step or a step forward (not back). The legs provide drive by pushing off the floor, but the lead comes from a constant, smooth advance (VOOOOOOOOOOM!), not from recoilAHEADrecoilAHEAD type dynamics. Individual steps are led because one turns the torso slightly toward the advancing leg, so in addition to advancing, your torso is oscillating subtly around your axis, the side opposite the advancing leg also advancing.

When I see someone trying to do a smooth forward walk by falling back before each step, I honestly wonder why they're disappointed (and they visibly are) that their follower interprets the lead as being for cunitas, back volcadas, ochos milongueros, or just about anything but a walk. There are certainly valid reasons to do something similar for forward traspiés in milonga, but even then, it's really advanceADVANCEadvanceAVANCE or its opposite, not recoilAHEADrecoilAHEAD.

 

[JournalInTime]

I react a little allergic to that general arm lead bashing!

After a few years here, I believe this might be another lost-in-translation thing.

Most of us know that the whole body leads, that just about any part can advance or recoil to communicate, that almost any part can be the point of contact for this. But it's all attached, so you don't freeze your whole body en bloc and (say) shove your partner with just a leg or just an arm. What those of us who have English as a first language mean by "arm leading" is literally standing still in space and yanking your partner around using only your arms, like two pistons emanating from an immobile wall.

We're talking quality of movement here, so I'll say that nobody who practices movement disciplines (pick your favorite) would ever recommend that sort of lead. It is dangerous for the follower's spinal column.

I strongly, strongly suspect that you – as someone with an injury – are not proposing to do that! I suspect that you're talking more about arms defining the limits of movement (sides and back of a "frame," with the torso covering the front), arm elasticity (common in off-axis movement), arm sliding (useful in turns), and maybe arm loops (typical of soltadas), all of which are necessary for tango and all of which implicate the shoulders, torso, and entire body by virtue of being attached.

I doubt that you're saying it's okay to grab your partner and shove them with arm strength, as you might in a barroom brawl, as the entirety of the lead. If you are saying that, well, you should know that today's teachers freak out if you do it and present it not as "something you can do at times, but you have to learn when" but simply as "wrong, and never to be done."

Anatomically seen, its a form of spiral dynamics.

Yes! Spirals are the best.

 

[Miradamiranda]

Arm lead bashing… well, as a follower I can attest that there’s more than plenty of dependence and over-use of arm leading out there, even among experienced dancers. Strong-arm leading, even. Painful. That said, my opinion is that arm-leading used the right places and in connection with (not separate from) the rest of the body’s comunication tools, is perfectly fine from a follower’s perspective.

 

[JournalInTime]

I'm not sure how I'd lead a colgada without letting my arms stretch, or a soltada that resembles a salsa-style turn without using an arm the way it's used for, well, salsa-style turns. Block leads – such as most volcadas, and ochos or giros milongueros – require a somewhat rigid closed-side arm to do the blocking, or you'll get pivots instead of crosses. Even the basic americana traditionally involves some arm implication on the open side, because it's a shift from flat to V, or from V to extreme V, and halfway to a soltada; the reverse americana is an actual soltada with a fancy name. The arms can't be ignored unless you opt to cut out a lot of movement options!

The odd thing is that the leaders who overuse arm leads are rarely doing so for those movement options! They're doing weird stuff like leading plain old Tango 101 ochos without displacing their body to lead them, doing the "washing machine" with the arms to pivot their partner in place without body accompaniment; even the fastest of these in double-timed milonga can be led by rapid displacements around the partner (e.g., rapid step around partner's right, quick collect, rapid step around partner's left, quick collect, possibly all in one time). Or worse, leading boleos by torquing their follower's spine using only the arms instead of simply changing the direction of or halting their own movement, whether in the torso or in their entire body, while letting the free leg continue in its original arc.

Pivots that require zero stretch, separation, or blocking – because you can do them smoothly at a fixed distance simply by timing your own circular dispacements around your follower correctly – get led using only the arms by those who have bad speed, bad distance control, bad circularity, or bad timing. The fix is to work on speed, distance control, circularity, and timing, not to use the arms as a shortcut to avoid doing that work. More than one of my teachers has characterized the refusal to do this work, be it the physical work of body accompaniment and displacement, or the pedagogical work in the classroom, as "pure laziness." I'm inclined to agree.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Dancers has an active role in shaping their community. Don't leave the tango to others!

I was just thinking of this today. Funny how that works. In other words: Don't abandon the playing field to the deadbeats although it's always tempting to leave in frustration. But you can't do it alone.

 

[Rabbit]

I'm not sure how I'd lead a colgada without letting my arms stretch, or a soltada that resembles a salsa-style turn without using an arm the way it's used for, well, salsa-style turns. Block leads – such as most volcadas, and ochos or giros milongueros – require a somewhat rigid closed-side arm to do the blocking, or you'll get pivots instead of crosses.

To revive a previously mentioned topic, this is also why the normal front cross towards the open side is easier: the lateral movement of the torso that generates the cross is more clearly communicated because of the presence of the leader's right arm (it doesn't need to be rigid)

 

[Bailango]

Having been out dancing since my last post on here. I was looking up the colander today and there were three pair of instructors from BsAs offering private lessons or group workshops. One of them is tango world champions.

This very typical. There is always a pair or two instructors who are visiting for a week or few months.

 

[TTanguero]

One of them is tango world champions.

It's honestly so common in London to see visiting teachers with the "tango world champions" label that I wonder whether there are weekly championships now to produce so many winners!

Not that it influences me in the slightest – being able to perform a choreographed stage sequence well with one partner tells us nothing about their expertise in social dance, and less than nothing about their teaching skills.

 

[pianistamediano]

It's honestly so common in London to see visiting teachers with the "tango world champions" label that I wonder whether there are weekly championships now to produce so many winners!

More like finalistas — there's a horde of them!

Not that it influences me in the slightest – being able to perform a choreographed stage sequence well with one partner tells us nothing about their expertise in social dance, and less than nothing about their teaching skills.

What winning the Mundial tells me is that their dance styles are cookie-cutter in order to conform to the standard Mundial-winning salon style and variants thereof.