Tango Diaries

[itwillhappen]

"gray" because it is the transition area from full-time professional and independent entrepreneurship to the hobby or volunteer segment.

Ah, okay, and is the full time professional end of the scale black or white for you?

 

[opendoor]

Ah, okay, and is the full time professional end of the scale black or white for you?

That is an interesting question. The ideal image of an artist is, of course, the stateless vagabond who sacrifices everything for his art: security, his partner, his home. The tango teacher couple, on the other hand, who, after winning prizes at competitions and years of wandering, build a life in a city in own studio and have children, is often considered a degenerate form. I can't tell you: if I hadn't met the vagabond, I wouldn't have started tango. If I hadn't had 10 years of privates with a prima ballerina who had to give up her career for health reasons, I wouldn't have learned anything.

 

[JournalInTime]

I totally agree, I am not interested in Tango Argentino, not Argentinian folk dances. I do not understand intention to teach Chacarera on Tango workshops dancers who can hardly dance Tango.

For me, "they're both Argentine and they're both dances" is like going to see the Berliner Philharmoniker, having Rammstein walk on the stage, and having somebody tell me, "They're both Berlin-based and they're both music."

 

[JournalInTime]

How does this fit together? Descartes was driven by a strong religious thirst for knowledge. Although he was traumatized by his Thomistic upbringing under the Jesuits, he did not turn away from Christianity. What I have read of him is characterized by deep religiosity. His work on the pituitary gland, in particular, is religiously motivated: he was searching for the gateway of the supernatural into the physical nature of man. Otherwise, would he have crawled across the battlefields of the Thirty Years' War, dissecting the slain one after the other?

To be fair, you don't have to share the religious beliefs of a philosopher to appreciate their work, but that's beside the point here: "Cartesian" in English and especially "cartesien" in French (which I speak more than English) means "clear, logical, methodical, rational, rigorous, and (usually) mathematical." It has almost nothing to do with the wider thoughts of René Descartes.

 

[opendoor]

.. I do not understand intention to teach Chacarera on Tango workshops dancers who can hardly dance Tango.

Behind your comment lies a didactic question: Do I have to master the walk before learning figuras? Do I have to have a reasonable grasp of tango before I can move on to vals and chacarera? Do I have to have passed through the valley of tears before I can have some fun with folklore?

 

[opendoor]

I know this, and it bothers me immensely that the modern Western mindset is traced back to Descartes. I've already argued with some real authorities in the field of philosophy and the history of science on this point. And please excuse me for writing this, even though I know what you had in mind: sometimes I have to fight against the world's thoughtless mainstream.

.."Cartesian" in English and especially "cartesien" in French (which I speak more than English) means "clear, logical, methodical, rational, rigorous, and (usually) mathematical....

So it does in German. But it doesn't have to stay that way. For example, I differentiate between Cartesian and Cartesianian.

 

[Paja]

Do I have to have passed through the valley of tears before I can have some fun with folklore?

If I want to have some fun with folklore, I can dance local dances. Our countryside is famous with folklore, lot of festivals and events in summer season. Almost every village has their own costume and typical dance.
Dancing Chacarera for TA dancers is like dancing Schuhplattler for dancers mastered in Viener Waltz. Both dances are danced in Austria, so you should know both. (in fact I learned Schuhplattler basics for one funny event and it is hard as hell).

 

[TTanguero]

Dancing Chacarera for TA dancers is like dancing Schuhplattler for dancers mastered in Viener Waltz. Both dances are danced in Austria, so you should know both.

For me, the argument in favour of having at least some familiarity with it is that it's seen in BsAs as a mark of respect for the culture, and a way to stand out from the typical tango tourist. Note that you don't have to be remotely good at it – many locals aren't – only to make the effort.

 

[JournalInTime]

So it does in German. But it doesn't have to stay that way. For example, I differentiate between Cartesian and Cartesianian.

Good luck with that in English. I've been an editor for 30+ years and a writer of one kind or another for 35+ years, and I can tell you that the battle against prescriptivism is a losing one. Meanings drift. Last year's "Cartesian" isn't this year's and won't be next year's – and provided that the drift isn't too swift or steep, everybody will still be able to figure it out.

Granted, that's less true in French due to the existence of l'Académie française. I'm clueless about German.

 

[JournalInTime]

For me, the argument in favour of having at least some familiarity with it is that it's seen in BsAs as a mark of respect for the culture, and a way to stand out from the typical tango tourist. Note that you don't have to be remotely good at it – many locals aren't – only to make the effort.

When I raised the subject (and I believe it's my fault this thread) . . .

chacarera and zamba presentations

. . . I was writing as a non-traveling dancer whose vision of tango is that of Montréal, Québec, Canada. Odds of me ever being in Buenos Aires are slight! In that context, Argentine folkloric dances strike me as an odd inclusion.

I know rather a few tango dancers who are ardent supporters of our culture, and who feel that if their tango must be mixed with non-tango, it should be something that shows respect for here – not for a place 9,000 km away. These people appreciate tango as dance qua dance, not as an expression of all things Argentine, and a few like tango best when it's wearing the clothes of its European and particularly Parisian visit, and is seasoned with dashes of valse musette and ballet. We even have tango teachers who speak of croisés and huits rather than cruzadas and ochos, and who use terms like battement and rond de jambe as if everyone should know them. There are also tango DJs whose cortinas and musical breaks are pulled from the library of chansonniers québécois.

 

[opendoor]

..Our countryside is famous with folklore, lot of festivals and.. Almost every village has their own costume and typical dance..

Your claim is unrealistic as the tango crowd resembles a precariat without history. Tango dancers simply have no access to local folk dances. They live in the cities, and their parents came from different directions. The tradition has been destroyed. I myself danced in a big-city balfolk group for three years. Occasionally, I played music in a rural folk dance group with costumes about one hour away by car. Sociologically seen, there was absolutely no overlap between the traditional rural folk and the urban balfolk communities.

..at least.. it's seen in BsAs as a mark of respect for the culture..

I just want to add that tango isn't really considered Argentinian in Argentina. It's a porteño subculture that was carried on by only a few families at home during difficult times.
But the situation with folklore there is quite different. Even in BsAs, there is a deep identification with folklore. And the resistance and casualty rate among folklorists was much higher than among tangueros.

 

[opendoor]

...I can tell you that the battle against prescriptivism is a losing one. Meanings drift..

Unfortunately not concerning the mainstream usage of "cartesian". I would like to emphasize that this has nothing to do with English, German, or the Académie français. It is an effect of the dominant philosophical schools at universities.

...tango DJs whose cortinas.. are pulled from the library of chansonniers québécois.

I would rather dance tandas to these chansons than just chat and drink.

 

[pianistamediano]

For me, "they're both Argentine and they're both dances" is like going to see the Berliner Philharmoniker, having Rammstein walk on the stage, and having somebody tell me, "They're both Berlin-based and they're both music."

I also can't stop chuckling at the sheer irony that the vast majority of people dancing chacarera at milongas and events here in Europe are middle-class (or above) persons who can afford to learn not only tango, but chacarera and are dancing a rural folk dance.

Besides, I was speaking to a friend of mine who studied many folk dances while she was living in Buenos Aires, and we both commiserated over how simplistic and repetitive everyone was dancing the chacarera — according to her, there is so much more to the chacarera than the few steps almost everyone does.

 

[pianistamediano]

To be fair, you don't have to share the religious beliefs of a philosopher to appreciate their work, but that's beside the point here: "Cartesian" in English and especially "cartesien" in French (which I speak more than English) means "clear, logical, methodical, rational, rigorous, and (usually) mathematical." It has almost nothing to do with the wider thoughts of René Descartes.

As a mathematician, it put me in mind of algebraic geometry.

 

[pianistamediano]

I just want to add that tango isn't really considered Argentinian in Argentina. It's a porteño subculture that was carried on by only a few families at home during difficult times.
But the situation with folklore there is quite different. Even in BsAs, there is a deep identification with folklore. And the resistance and casualty rate among folklorists was much higher than among tangueros.

Rioplatense, to be exact.

Mate is far more Argentinian than tango, that's why you get plenty of non-Argentinians toting around their mate and bombilla. Poseurs, the lot.