Tango Diaries

[Miradamiranda]

You said it was a private milonga. But 100 guests doesn’t sound too private

It was invitation only in someone’s home. I call that private.

If it’s a private milonga, I am not sure cabaceo should be followed.

Many people didn’t know too many others.

Also if it is as dark as you mentioned there is no practical way to cabaceo. It is interesting that you say several men were hesitant to ask verbally.

We have habits. And cabeceo was working when there was daylight. It was a surprise to many of us that it would be that dark.

After it got dark, the host or DJ should have announced please ask verbally.

It was all very casual. No announcements. Apparently this event has been going on for 10 years and the hosts get around to many events so they know people who will travel for this. They knew all the invitees.

You said the men were too insecure. I am not sure “insecure” is the correct word.

That’s the word she used

Men know that some women take affront at being asked verbally. Therefore refraining is not due to insecurity. It is better to let people know that they have permission to ask verbally. Your own experience bears that out that after you were overheard, at least two men asked you verbally.

 

[opendoor]

..Part of being experienced dancer is to explore on your own how the movement ..can be entered into and exited in different ways. What are body mechanics that make the movement possible. There is plenty where an experienced dancer can apply his/her mind to deconstruct the movement already known..

However, the approach you mentioned only works a posteriori. But why should the dancer learn all that historical stuff, names and sequences first? Why deconstruct figures only on the second attempt (top down). Why not start with elementary moves (bottom-up direction) and gradually add more complexity?

 

[JournalInTime]

It was invitation only in someone’s home. I call that private.

Interrupting to say, "100 guests in someone's home? Wow!" Living in a dense (if charming, gentrified, etc.) area where most people have less than our unusually generous 126 square metres for their entire place . . . I'm impressed! The fire marshal limits many dance studios here to less than 100 people.

 

[JournalInTime]

Why not start with elementary moves (bottom-up direction) and gradually add more complexity?

I say this all the time, but nobody listens. Well, almost nobody. My coach is teaching new students this way, and I'm doing my teacher training in that context. Unsurprisingly, teaching "weight shift in place, touch, step, rock, rebound, lane change, system change, pivot, embrace size change, embrace shape change, level shift, axis shift, etc." has people dancing a wider range of possible movements sooner and better, because they aren't hung up on emulating long, complex patterns . . . they're moving through space in ways that make sense given their partner's location, the previous movement, the music, and the desired next movement.

Teaching people "Here's a bundle of weight shifts, lane changes, steps, pivots, etc. we call [name]," "Here's a different bundle we call [other name]," etc. is mostly just teaching them to speak the tango jargon of the teacher's region while giving them complicated figures they'll soon grow frustrated attempting to fit to the music and (most important) available space. I dance around and especially behind such frustrated people all the time. They get flustered if they can't dance, say, an entire turn sequence of 720° with three sacadas here, here, and here, and a lapiz here, and try to force that: onto their partner, into the space, and regardless of the music.

My coach's beginners are already dancing better, more interesting turns without even knowing that they are. They just up and danced a mutual molinete the other day because step-pivot-step-pivot-etc. was, to quote, "The obvious way to orbit around each other if there's no space" (I played the "evil leader" and blocked the imaginary line of dance). Sure, they have to clean up the execution of the steps, pivots, etc., but doing so will clean up the mutual turn with no extra effort. Whereas cleaning up the turn certainly won't change anything for other uses of steps and pivots, because the vast, vast majority of people take corrections on packaged movements as being specific to the packages; they can't generalize.

More briefly: People build clean movements from clean atoms (bottom up), but rarely generalize clean movements to clean atoms to build up other clean movements (top down), because that injects an extra step. I suppose traditionalists will grumble when such "tango Lego" is used to build nontraditional figures, or when those dancing figures don't know common names for them or even claim that they invented them, but appeasing grumpy conservatives isn't and shouldn't be a goal of dance training.

 

[Bailango]

However, the approach you mentioned only works a posteriori. But why should the dancer learn all that historical stuff, names and sequences first? Why deconstruct figures only on the second attempt (top down). Why not start with elementary moves (bottom-up direction) and gradually add more complexity?

Ideally yes. But the current teaching at early stage fails to do that. May be there are some instructors that adopt the bottom-up approach. I think I have witnessed a couple of them.

Absent that, a dancer that’s dancing a long time, should be able to start deconstructing what they know and dance. We can’t absolve long time dancers from not being part-responsible for not recognizing such.

 

[Bailango]

I suppose traditionalists will grumble when such "tango Lego" is used to build nontraditional figures, or when those dancing figures don't know common names for them or even claim that they invented them, but appeasing grumpy conservatives isn't and shouldn't be a goal of dance training.

Not sure grumpy conservatives matter much or need to be appease. If we leave aside Neuvo - which is about large figures in open hold making those who like to dance that way often ill suited for traveling the line of dance and the music (alternative/nuevo); there is plenty that can be done within tango as danced:

- in close embrace
- to golden era or similar style of music (in modern era)
- traveling in line of dance

which should raise ire of traditionalists or conservatives.

 

[Miradamiranda]

Interrupting to say, "100 guests in someone's home? Wow!" Living in a dense (if charming, gentrified, etc.) area where most people have less than our unusually generous 126 square metres for their entire place . . . I'm impressed! The fire marshal limits many dance studios here to less than 100 people.

Yes, impressive. Very big house. It’s a rural area in eastern Germany. It’s outdoors on a very smoothly polished concrete patio. There are indoor areas also, but not for dancing. People make the effort to go back every year. Although it’s a bus, 3 trains, and another bus for me to get there, many hours, I’ll have to see how I can fit it into my schedule for next year. Oh and the food… is the real star of the event. And for me, that the host and a friend of his are both in my top 5 list.

Talking about willingness to travel to dance with favorite partners, last night I spent two hours (1-way) to go to a place where another on my top 5 list was going, because I was flattered he complained we hadn’t danced together in 2 months. It was worth it, we had quite a few lovely tandas. All my favorites (even top 10) are not local to me, so I have to be geographically flexible.

 

[Bailango]

Yes, impressive. Very big house. It’s a rural area in eastern Germany. It’s outdoors on a very smoothly polished concrete patio. There are indoor areas also, but not for dancing. People make the effort to go back every year. Although it’s a bus, 3 trains, and another bus for me to get there, many hours, I’ll have to see how I can fit it into my schedule for next year. Oh and the food… is the real star of the event. And for me, that the host and a friend of his are both in my top 5 list.

Talking about willingness to travel to dance with favorite partners, last night I spent two hours (1-way) to go to a place where another on my top 5 list was going, because I was flattered he complained we hadn’t danced together in 2 months. It was worth it, we had quite a few lovely tandas. All my favorites (even top 10) are not local to me, so I have to be geographically flexible.

That sound perfect Go where you get your best dances!

 

[opendoor]

..there is plenty that can be done within tango as danced:

- in close embrace
- to golden era or similar style of music (in modern era)
- traveling in line of dance

which should raise ire of traditionalists or conservatives.

Why should CE, GA and LOD upset both traditionalists AND conservatives?

 

[Bailango]

Why should CE, GA and LOD upset both traditionalists AND conservatives?

There was a typo. It was meant to say “should not raise ire of traditionalists or conservatives”

 

[opendoor]

..not raise ire of traditionalists or conservatives..

You mustn't lump them together. Gustav Mahler once said that traditionalists pass on the flame, while conservatives worship the ashes.

 

[Brummbaer]

You mustn't lump them together. Gustav Mahler once said that traditionalists pass on the flame, while conservatives worship the ashes.

Usually quoted as:
Tradition ist nicht die Anbetung der Asche, sondern die Weitergabe der Feuer

(Tradition isn't worshipping the ashes but passing on the flame)

Whether Mahler said that or not is also questionable and other sources may be referenced, including Thomas More, Benjamin Franklin and others. I've always liked that quotation myself.


I do like the misquote about 'conservatives'

 

[Bailango]

You mustn't lump them together. Gustav Mahler once said that traditionalists pass on the flame, while conservatives worship the ashes.

I wasn’t lumping them together like they are interchangeable. But subset of either can be wedded to certain perception of how things were and anything else is sacrilege. I say a subset because they are the ones who make most noise and misplaced dogmatics. You could also have either of those not in subset who are either neutral or fine with the progression as long as it doesn’t break the broader rules or character (of an art).

When you break the character, you are essentially creating something new. In which case it is better to acknowledge that as forking of new art. Rather than trying to impose it on existing one under guise of progression.

A concrete example is Bachata Sensual. It is a new thing very little to do with the character of bachat itself. Both from music and dance perspective. Trying to justify it as bachata is an example of imposition. It is “something” sensual, it is popular, people want to dance it. Fine. Just don’t try to say it is bachata.

 

[Paja]

A concrete example is Bachata Sensual. It is a new thing very little to do with the character of bachat itself. Both from music and dance perspective. Trying to justify it as bachata is an example of imposition. It is “something” sensual, it is popular, people want to dance it. Fine. Just don’t try to say it is bachata.

Well, the same procedure you can apply to Tango Nuevo. Just replace Bachata to Tango Nuevo. It is "something" tango-like.. But! These new and popular things are atracting younger dancers and in many cases if these dancers do not quit, sooner or later they discover whole Tango world. It was my case definitelly. I started with GOTAN, BAJOFONDO and Piazolla was boring, except of Libertango. Music from GA was too sentimental, outdated. And today? I love rhytmical tangos from 30's most. And I would like to learn more Canyengue style, but there are no lectors in achiavable distance.

 

[opendoor]

...Just don’t try to say it is bachata.

I think you haven't identified the difference between traditionalists and conservatives based on the quote I admittedly exaggerated. The key word for traditionalism is evolution, the key word for conservatism is retro. So what constitutes continuity? I have my points:
-background
-self-image
-connectivity

Korke Escalona may not have a background in the Dominican Republic, but he danced bachata dominicana for many years. Therefore, in my opinion, this requirement is met. The other points are met anyway. In addition, b. sensual also emancipates b. dominica and frees it from its shadowy existence in the shadows of salsa.