Teacher rating - criteria?

[newbie]

Ok.
So, with the proviso that all the teachers meet a similar (gift, age, gender, mood, number, dedication...) sample of students, and not counting the very skilled but very unfortunate teachers who are always presented with terrible students...

You judge a teacher by the dance of his pupils.

For instance, most of Gustavo's pupils are teachers themselves. That would place Gustavo quite high in the rankings, which is not counter-intuitive.

 

[Heather2007]

Not every student will master the dance, but ANY student (leader) should be able to master basic floorcraft. If a leader is charging all over the place, cutting diagonally across the floor, or moving against LOD, then that's not a good sign for what he's getting taught.

Disagree. Floorcraft is told not taught = If a couple has paused in front of you, usually means there's a couple in front of them - so what do you? Common sense reaction: You don't barge pass them. Equally, if it's a crowded milonga do not treat the place like Catford Dog Track. Those that fail to adminsiter their basic Milonga-Mirror-Signal-Manouvre is down to temperment and not the teacher.

Proof: I was never told how to floor manage. I merely took a woman in my arms and "watched" the traffic. And so...

Doesn't help with analyzing followers, but tells you a lot about the leaders and the instruction they're getting.

A teacher can say all she/he likes in a class but the basic temperament of one who is considerate or inconsiderate will kick in once the music chimes and so the faults of the man mimicking a greyhound chasing a rabbit should not be put on the shoulders that taught him. A man, yesterday stood too close to me - practically breathing down my neck - at the ATM. I stopped, turned and told him to step back and give me some space. He tutted, huffed, rolled his eyes and finally succumbed to doing what he was told. Who do I blame for his lack of spatial awareness - his maths teacher?

 

[Heather2007]

of beginner leaders who are often absorbed in just walking and lose awareness of whats around them.

And not to mention the advanced followers, their killer heels, large boleos in a confined area. Yep, coming from the same school of thought as my man at the ATM. :bkick:

 

[Zoopsia59]

So you are holding teachers responsible for students who dont bother to learn good floor craft? I would echo what Heather said above; students do not necessarily reflect the quality of the teacher. i think floorcraft goes out the window for a lot of beginner leaders who are often absorbed in just walking and lose awareness of whats around them.

Beginner students don't do fancy moves while charging all around the floor irregardless of other people. There is a difference between someone who hasn't yet learned to navigate smoothly, gets stuck unable to remember things and accidentally bumps because they were concentrating, and someone who blatantly disregards the proper flow. Beginners can simply walk in LOD. If they go backwards, its because someone taught them a step that travels backwards.. very few men will instinctively take backwards steps if they weren't shown them. And they will only be floundering trying to find a place to do their memorized step sequence if they were taught long step patterns before ever being taught to just walk the line of dance.

I maintain that if the teacher emphasizes it from the beginning, floorcraft will be reflected in that teacher's students. Its possible to teach people from day ONE about Line of Dance and not cutting diagonally across the floor or traveling backwards, much less meandering willy nilly all over the place. And I've seen it IGNORED in far too many classes. I've also seen it rigorously enforced by an instructor.

If the teacher tells beginners its important, then the students will treat it as important. If they get constantly corrected in a class for ignoring proper floorcraft, then they will either get the point or they will go to an instructor who doesn't nag them about it so they can do whatever they want (thus no longer being a student of the teacher who emphasizes it)

So yes... I believe that the teacher can have enough influence in this one area to be an indicator of what the leader is getting taught by their instructor. If the person is doing complicated patterns without realizing how it affects others (or realizing but not knowing what to do about it) and moving against LOD, thats because they were TAUGHT that way. Few people can make up their own stuff until they are masters, so they're just practicing what they were shown.

Frankly, if you guys really think teachers have no influence at all in how students turn out, then why bother teaching or taking lessons? We might as well all just watch videos of stage performers..

Maybe the difference is that you guys are in London where classes might be much larger than what many of us experience (and therefore teachers have less ability to correct each individual) or maybe the whole scene in London is very different. Certainly you can't judge a teacher by ONE student, but you definitely see a pattern of behavior by observing the roster of students. And actually, the more crowded the class is, the more important the lesson in floorcraft is even within the class. The large class is an OPPORTUNITY to emphasize it, not an excuse for letting it slide!

 

[Zoopsia59]

the basic temperament of one who is considerate or inconsiderate will kick in once the music chimes and so the faults of the man mimicking a greyhound chasing a rabbit should not be put on the shoulders that taught him.

I respectfully disagree. It must be possible to teach proper floorcraft, because I never see at ballroom dances here the disregard for it that I see at Milongas. If ballroom dancers can learn and deal with it, then I don't think you can just blame people's temperament for the fact that some people meander. Its not like there are no prima donnas in ballroom.

If the pattern the student got taught traveled down line of dance, they'd be moving in line of dance. When they get taught patterns that meander with no explanation on how to do the sequence without violating LOD, then they violate LOD. Too many classes get taught using patterns that are only suitable to stage performing where interesting and balanced use of the entire space is not only justified, but required. If that's what a student got taught in a lesson, that's what you'll see him trying to do.

And as to temperament... I've danced with some lovely guys who were the nicest people in the world... and they had no idea how to navigate or make their dancing travel properly. Sure every teacher has a jackass here and there, but the habits of the BULK of the teacher's student roster IS an indication of what that teacher emphasizes as important.

But as I said in the post above... I'm not in a major metropolitan area like London... There are few if any advanced dancers here.. I'd say most are beginner to advanced-intermediate. (I inlcude myself) And we pretty much all know each other. There aren't the choices in milongas or the numbers of participants that you have, and even the most popular teacher still has a fraction of the number of students that a popular teacher in London would have.

 

[dchester]

Disagree. Floorcraft is told not taught = If a couple has paused in front of you, usually means there's a couple in front of them - so what do you? Common sense reaction: You don't barge pass them. Equally, if it's a crowded milonga do not treat the place like Catford Dog Track. Those that fail to adminsiter their basic Milonga-Mirror-Signal-Manouvre is down to temperment and not the teacher.

Proof: I was never told how to floor manage. I merely took a woman in my arms and "watched" the traffic. And so...

I think this only proves that you figured it out without being taught. I can assure you that some teachers do teach floorcraft (now whether people choose to accept what they were taught, is another story).

Probably the best drill on floorcraft I've had, was one where we were told that for the next song, we only were allowed to do the 8CB. The only option we had was we could vary the timing on any of the steps (i.e. we could do some as quick steps, and we could pause as we saw fit). He stressed that he wanted us to do the backstep, but of course we needed to be certain that it was safe to take it. Of course he made sure that everyone was crammed in tight, to make it more difficult. It was a useful drill.

 

[Zoopsia59]

And not to mention the advanced followers, their killer heels, large boleos in a confined area. Yep, coming from the same school of thought as my man at the ATM. :bkick:

To me this is a contradiction.. a truly advanced follower wouldn't do a large boleo in a confined space, and a truly advanced leader wouldn't lead a reverse with such force that the follower needs to struggle to keep their leg low because of the torque.

But I agree with the :bkick:

 

[Zoopsia59]

I
Probably the best drill on floorcraft I've had, was one where we were told that for the next song, we only were allowed to do the 8CB. The only option we had was we could vary the timing on any of the steps (i.e. we could do some as quick steps, and we could pause as we saw fit). He stressed that he wanted us to do the backstep, but of course we needed to be certain that it was safe to take it. Of course he made sure that everyone was crammed in tight, to make it more difficult. It was a useful drill.

The best drill on it I've seen in a class was when the guest instructors blockaded the entire center of the room and left basically one lane open around the outside. They allowed the people to do anything they knew as long as their movement was either in place or along LOD. And they were only allowed to do something in place if there was no room for them to move forward.

People really hated that class because they realized that about the only thing most of them could do was walk. They didn't even know many circular moves to stay in place (astounding to me how few people here do Ocho Cortada) Few at that time had been taught a proper molinete', or if they had, they had rarely used it for some reason. And when they wanted to do back ochos, which is so many people's default step, they didn't know how to make them travel so they couldn't do them except when they were stuck in place.

Yep... it was quite the learning experience and might have made far too devastating an impact on people's egos. But it sure got the point across! (and then got ignored because people had gone too long ignoring it and it wasn't reinforced by other teachers who came in)

 

[bastet]

The best drill on it I've seen in a class was when the guest instructors blockaded the entire center of the room and left basically one lane open around the outside. They allowed the people to do anything they knew as long as their movement was either in place or along LOD. And they were only allowed to do something in place if there was no room for them to move forward.

People really hated that class because they realized that about the only thing most of them could do was walk. They didn't even know many circular moves to stay in place (astounding to me how few people here do Ocho Cortada) Few at that time had been taught a proper molinete', or if they had, they had rarely used it for some reason. And when they wanted to do back ochos, which is so many people's default step, they didn't know how to make them travel so they couldn't do them except when they were stuck in place.

Yep... it was quite the learning experience and might have made far too devastating an impact on people's egos. But it sure got the point across! (and then got ignored because people had gone too long ignoring it and it wasn't reinforced by other teachers who came in)

yeah- done that one (also when we first began and didn't know any in place stuff so it was quite frustrating). I think it's a good one for a pretty large class.

For smaller classes you can just take away their space and pack them like sardines in a corner, or make them dance in small circles on the floor (or hula-hoops) to enforce the use of circular movements.

I will say that it is entirely possible for beginners to learn at least basic floorcraft. The idea of not cutting across the floor and avoiding passing or tailgating isn't that hard a concept, and all the teacher has to do in a class setting is every now and then have the guys dance a song paying attention to who they are in front and back of and attempting to maintain the arrangements as they move along LOD. Do it a few times on a few different occasions and most guys (but certainly not all) will continue to employ the same basic idea at a milonga. It also helps if you give them some vocabulary that can easily stay in place so they have something to do besides rock-step-side over and over.

 

[Gssh]

So you are holding teachers responsible for students who dont bother to learn good floor craft? .

In my experience teachers play a crucial role in teaching floorcraft. A good teacher will teach floorcraft implicitly by mentioning how figures can be shortened and what figures work in tight spaces and which ones don't. In my first beginner class i learned:
1) the rockstep for buying time in a tight situations - it looks and feels much better than just standing there and waiting till the traffic has cleared.
2) every figure can and should be interrupted if there is no space - again, the rockstep is a great holding/transition pattern, gets you to a predictable base, allows you to pick up another figure easily, and can be done from anywhere.
3) if it is tight don't step anywhere you can't see (the right and back). turning with a few rocksteps is a good way to get a 360 view of what the situation is like.

Now that i have written this down it is pretty funny - basically my teacher said "if you are in trouble do rocksteps/weightshifts in place" over and over again - and that is still what i do.

Gssh

 

[bordertangoman]

In my experience teachers play a crucial role in teaching floorcraft. A good teacher will teach floorcraft implicitly by mentioning how figures can be shortened and what figures work in tight spaces and which ones don't. In my first beginner class i learned:
1) the rockstep for buying time in a tight situations - it looks and feels much better than just standing there and waiting till the traffic has cleared.
2) every figure can and should be interrupted if there is no space - again, the rockstep is a great holding/transition pattern, gets you to a predictable base, allows you to pick up another figure easily, and can be done from anywhere.
3) if it is tight don't step anywhere you can't see (the right and back). turning with a few rocksteps is a good way to get a 360 view of what the situation is like.

Now that i have written this down it is pretty funny - basically my teacher said "if you are in trouble do rocksteps/weightshifts in place" over and over again - and that is still what i do.

Gssh

I agree it should be taught but that doesn't guarantee people will use what you teach them.
I learnt from Rodolpho; he stuck a group of people in each corner of a room and you had to reach the diagonal opposite corner using only forward and side steps and you had to pass through chairs so you couldnt sneak round the outside. I taught people to do ocho cortados and rocking steps with rotation on the spot and they still wander all over the place. Mostly they're decent people and considerate of other dancers, but some skills still need developing.

 

[hbboogie1]

I respectfully disagree. It must be possible to teach proper floorcraft, because I never see at ballroom dances here the disregard for it that I see at Milongas. If ballroom dancers can learn and deal with it, then I don't think you can just blame people's temperament for the fact that some people meander. Its not like there are no prima donnas in ballroom.

If the pattern the student got taught traveled down line of dance, they'd be moving in line of dance. When they get taught patterns that meander with no explanation on how to do the sequence without violating LOD, then they violate LOD. Too many classes get taught using patterns that are only suitable to stage performing where interesting and balanced use of the entire space is not only justified, but required. If that's what a student got taught in a lesson, that's what you'll see him trying to do.

And as to temperament... I've danced with some lovely guys who were the nicest people in the world... and they had no idea how to navigate or make their dancing travel properly. Sure every teacher has a jackass here and there, but the habits of the BULK of the teacher's student roster IS an indication of what that teacher emphasizes as important.

But as I said in the post above... I'm not in a major metropolitan area like London... There are few if any advanced dancers here.. I'd say most are beginner to advanced-intermediate. (I inlcude myself) And we pretty much all know each other. There aren't the choices in milongas or the numbers of participants that you have, and even the most popular teacher still has a fraction of the number of students that a popular teacher in London would have.

Floor craft is a craft or a skill that is taught. The teachers cannot be responsible for the students not executing that skill. So let’s separate the teaching from the doing. I attend a milonga in SoCal where the teacher/organizer passes out a flyer with floor craft rules to each and every person entering the milonga.
Most of the crowd is pretty good but there’s always a few who don’t know were never taught didn’t take the time to read the flyer or they are just plain idiots. These are the ones who ruin it for the masses.
In BsAs those few are the ones that are ejected from the milongas.

PS..What ballroom dances are you attending? You have the same clowns in ballroom as you do in AT.
No respect for the floor.

 

[mshedgehog]

Last year I was thinking about this problem and tried putting together a "Beginners' Questionnaire" to help the totally clueless beginner with no idea what to expect, decide whether the class he or she had been to was going the right way or the wrong way overall.

The intent is at least somewhat humorous, but I was also trying to help by sticking to questions the beginner would really be able to answer about the class after taking it. The problem with trying to assess quality or outcomes more broadly is that the beginner generally isn't in a position to do that.

I think I might do a second edition with some "extra points" questions. Since writing that, I've encountered better quality teaching than I had before I wrote it, and my expectations of what's possible have risen.

If someone asks me personally for advice who to go to, I tend to talk about my experience of their results, since there are certainly broad differences there, big enough to distinguish the qualities of the teachers at least partly from the qualities of the students. Some teachers produce students who can dance, are nice to dance with, and improve over time, and others don't. But I also talk about their qualifications and quality of dancing and teaching, to the extent that I know anything about them.

The quality of dancing is important to me because I think one of the most important pieces of information the beginner needs (especially the women) is what tango is supposed to feel like. And a person who can't transmit that isn't well qualified to teach tango in a situation where someone who can is also available. Although they might perhaps be qualified to give other important information about it, such as on the subject of music or history or its relationship to other dances. Ideally, of course, the teacher should be able to do all those things: but that's rarely available.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Floor craft is a craft or a skill that is taught. The teachers cannot be responsible for the students not executing that skill. So let’s separate the teaching from the doing. I attend a milonga in SoCal where the teacher/organizer passes out a flyer with floor craft rules to each and every person entering the milonga.
Most of the crowd is pretty good but there’s always a few who don’t know were never taught didn’t take the time to read the flyer or they are just plain idiots. These are the ones who ruin it for the masses.
In BsAs those few are the ones that are ejected from the milongas.

PS..What ballroom dances are you attending? You have the same clowns in ballroom as you do in AT.
No respect for the floor.

I think you actually just made my argument for me . You refer to individuals who are badly behaved rather than whole groups all coming from a single instructor. I think I've stated several times that you can't look at ONE student of an instructor and determine much, but rather the general pattern of behavior of the bulk of their students. A teacher near here turned out a whole slew of people who ignored floorcraft and now that this particular teacher is no longer the main influence, the general floorcraft of dancers improved. Proof that the teacher has an effect.

BTW, it seems you are now reversing your argument since you were the one who posted this:
<<<You can also see certain basic fundamentals that were taught that other instructors seem to skip over. >>>

So do you think you can tell something about teachers from watching their students fundamentals? To me, not going backwards against the line of dance and not traveling diagonally across the floor are about as fundamental as you can get. Even when only walking, someone can master these basic concepts!

PS - We're 3000 miles apart.. what good would it be for me to tell you what ballroom dances I attend or for you to tell me how people dance in the ones here?

 

[bastet]

Floor craft is a craft or a skill that is taught. The teachers cannot be responsible for the students not executing that skill. So let’s separate the teaching from the doing. I attend a milonga in SoCal where the teacher/organizer passes out a flyer with floor craft rules to each and every person entering the milonga.
Most of the crowd is pretty good but there’s always a few who don’t know were never taught didn’t take the time to read the flyer or they are just plain idiots. These are the ones who ruin it for the masses.
In BsAs those few are the ones that are ejected from the milongas.

PS..What ballroom dances are you attending? You have the same clowns in ballroom as you do in AT.
No respect for the floor.

It really doesn't do people any good to hand them a set of rules at a milonga. Floorcraft is something they have to practice in a class setting, IMO, to make headway with it.