Teacher rating - criteria?

[Zoopsia59]

I agree it should be taught but that doesn't guarantee people will use what you teach them..

I agree that not ALL will use what you teach them, but if MOST don't, then I think there is a problem stemming from the teacher.

 

[Steve Pastor]

It really doesn't do people any good to hand them a set of rules at a milonga.

What it does do is establish the fact that the organizers take "floorcraft" and behaving appropriately on floor seriously.
I have yet to return to one of the Portland tango festivals because of really bad experiences with "floorcraft" combined with a perceived lack of response from the organizers.
And I'm not talking about yelling "He hit me," and expecting soemone to be tossed out. I'm talking about flyers, posted codes of behavior, having courses on "floorcraft" on the schedule, a revised page on web site, having the teachers mention it in all classes, etc.
They did eventually mount an effort to make things better. Meanwhile, I developed other things to do.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Last year I was thinking about this problem and tried putting together a "Beginners' Questionnaire" to help the totally clueless beginner with no idea what to expect,

WOW! great article! And lots of food for thought.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Bastet: It really doesn't do people any good to hand them a set of rules at a milonga.

Steve Pastor; What it does do is establish the fact that the organizers take "floorcraft" and behaving appropriately on floor seriously.

I think you're both right. Going to a milonga and reading the rules won't inform them of HOW. But if they haven't been told how in a class and they get to a milonga and get scolded or feel they don't know what to do, hopefully they will go back to their teacher and say "Hey! What gives? You didn't prepare me for THIS!"

And if they have gotten told and chose to ignore it, then having the milonga organizers back up the teacher's emphasis will make it more likely that people will comply. Especially if there are consequences (beyond getting glared at)

 

[hbboogie1]

It really doesn't do people any good to hand them a set of rules at a milonga. Floorcraft is something they have to practice in a class setting, IMO, to make headway with it.

If your not told what floor craft is how can you practice it?

 

[hbboogie1]

Bastet: It really doesn't do people any good to hand them a set of rules at a milonga.

Steve Pastor; What it does do is establish the fact that the organizers take "floorcraft" and behaving appropriately on floor seriously.

I think you're both right. Going to a milonga and reading the rules won't inform them of HOW. But if they haven't been told how in a class and they get to a milonga and get scolded or feel they don't know what to do, hopefully they will go back to their teacher and say "Hey! What gives? You didn't prepare me for THIS!"

And if they have gotten told and chose to ignore it, then having the milonga organizers back up the teacher's emphasis will make it more likely that people will comply. Especially if there are consequences (beyond getting glared at)

The consequence at her milonga is she will give you a warning and if the problem continues you’re asked to leave. If more organizers would do this milongas would be more enjoyable for the masses.

 

[hbboogie1]

I respectfully disagree. It must be possible to teach proper floorcraft, because I never see at ballroom dances here the disregard for it that I see at Milongas. If ballroom dancers can learn and deal with it, then I don't think you can just blame people's temperament for the fact that some people meander. Its not like there are no prima donnas in ballroom.

If the pattern the student got taught traveled down line of dance, they'd be moving in line of dance. When they get taught patterns that meander with no explanation on how to do the sequence without violating LOD, then they violate LOD. Too many classes get taught using patterns that are only suitable to stage performing where interesting and balanced use of the entire space is not only justified, but required. If that's what a student got taught in a lesson, that's what you'll see him trying to do.

And as to temperament... I've danced with some lovely guys who were the nicest people in the world... and they had no idea how to navigate or make their dancing travel properly. Sure every teacher has a jackass here and there, but the habits of the BULK of the teacher's student roster IS an indication of what that teacher emphasizes as important.

But as I said in the post above... I'm not in a major metropolitan area like London... There are few if any advanced dancers here.. I'd say most are beginner to advanced-intermediate. (I inlcude myself) And we pretty much all know each other. There aren't the choices in milongas or the numbers of participants that you have, and even the most popular teacher still has a fraction of the number of students that a popular teacher in London would have

.

My point is floor craft needs to be explained to new dancers. Teach it hand out flyers have them google it just give them the information.
Heather said:
Proof: I was never told how to floor manage. I merely took a woman in my arms and "watched" the traffic.
Question”””Heather are you a woman that leads? How did you figure out all that floor craft encompasses just by “watching the traffic”
I’m curious how do you enter the line of dance in the middle of a song?

 

[bastet]

Bastet: It really doesn't do people any good to hand them a set of rules at a milonga.

Steve Pastor; What it does do is establish the fact that the organizers take "floorcraft" and behaving appropriately on floor seriously.

I think you're both right. Going to a milonga and reading the rules won't inform them of HOW. But if they haven't been told how in a class and they get to a milonga and get scolded or feel they don't know what to do, hopefully they will go back to their teacher and say "Hey! What gives? You didn't prepare me for THIS!"

And if they have gotten told and chose to ignore it, then having the milonga organizers back up the teacher's emphasis will make it more likely that people will comply. Especially if there are consequences (beyond getting glared at)

I can certainly understand that point of view, having the organizers treat it as an important issue is also relevant. But this is also assuming people will read a handout.

UNfortuantely, it's been my expreience that most people are going to stuff handouts in to their shoebag or the trash bin rather than look at them at a milonga (because we've tried that). The classroom is where they actually will get the knowhow to handle the dancefloor from the teacher making them practice it (because we've seen this approach work).

 

[Heather2007]

But as I said in the post above... I'm not in a major metropolitan area like London... There are few if any advanced dancers here.. I'd say most are beginner to advanced-intermediate. (I inlcude myself) And we pretty much all know each other. There aren't the choices in milongas or the numbers of participants that you have, and even the most popular teacher still has a fraction of the number of students that a popular teacher in London would have.

True. I can only speak for those here in London. Zoops, this town is ruder then rude itself. Trust me. And so, lift that rudeness off the tarmac and shove it inside a milonga the attitude will remain the same - no matter what teacher told them re. staying in the line of dance, not doing big show dance moves in a crowded space, no pushing, no barging etc. Doubtless that attitude would considered alien in, say, a small country town or village.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I can certainly understand that point of view, having the organizers treat it as an important issue is also relevant. But this is also assuming people will read a handout.

UNfortuantely, it's been my expreience that most people are going to stuff handouts in to their shoebag or the trash bin rather than look at them at a milonga (because we've tried that). The classroom is where they actually will get the knowhow to handle the dancefloor from the teacher making them practice it (because we've seen this approach work).

Well, the organizers can't stop at handing out the flyer.. they have to ENFORCE what they put in the flyer. And I agree (as I said in a post above) that the milonga is not the place to be introduced to the concept of floorcraft for the first time, although for some unfortunate people, it is.

It really doesn't matter what people do with the flyer (read it, stuff it) if the organizers enforce what's in it. The handout is just to cover the butts of the rganizers so when people argue about being reprimanded, the official can respond... "Hey, it was all in that flyer we handed you when you came in.. did you read it?" THe offending dancer can't reallty claim he didn't know that there were rules. (and as I said earlier.. if they dont' know HOW to follow the rules, they can say that to the organizer and maybe the organizer will point them in the right direction for instruction, or they will go back to their teacher and say "*** man! I have been taken lessons from you for x, and I went to a milonga and wasn't allowed to dance!"

The biggest problems seem to occur when the teacher(s) who don't give any attention to floorcraft is also the organizer(s) of the milongas.

 

[Zoopsia59]

True. I can only speak for those here in London. Zoops, this town is ruder then rude itself.

The English? Rude? Seriously? I thought the British had this reputation/stereotype for always being proper. How is being rude proper?

 

[Heather2007]

The English? Rude? Seriously? I thought the British had this reputation/stereotype for always being proper. How is being rude proper?

Oh, the English (at least the majority that is) are fine. The Londoners however (and here I point out those that come in and not those of an age that were born in)...erm..nah!

 

[mshedgehog]

True. I can only speak for those here in London. Zoops, this town is ruder then rude itself. Trust me.

However, Londoners generally do, for example, stand on the right and walk on the left of the escalators. And just try not respecting the codigos of the queue in Dorothy Perkins; accidental infringements quite often do result in a very dirty look, an apology, or both.

What I mean is, local custom is a necessary part of people learning what's normal behaviour; I think floorcraft is rubbish not because the people are intrinsically rude but because there isn't enough real consensus about what the applicable customs and techniques are. Too many people and not enough Clue. The bloke I saw reverse, hard, into two couples at once at Corrientes (I was seriously quite impressed), is Russian. Russians generally, though - at least as polite as anyone else.

If I hadn't ever seen the kind of queue before that forms spontaneously as one queue for 3 cash machines, people peeling off as each becomes available - I might make the mistake of butting in, once. But every newcomer rapidly learns this 'cause everybody else knows how to do it and they can see how it works. But if you and I and a couple of friends tried to start a queue like that in New York it probably wouldn't work, even though it means everybody gets served faster.

 

[hbboogie1]

Well, the organizers can't stop at handing out the flyer.. they have to ENFORCE what they put in the flyer. And I agree (as I said in a post above) that the milonga is not the place to be introduced to the concept of floorcraft for the first time, although for some unfortunate people, it is.

It really doesn't matter what people do with the flyer (read it, stuff it) if the organizers enforce what's in it. The handout is just to cover the butts of the rganizers so when people argue about being reprimanded, the official can respond... "Hey, it was all in that flyer we handed you when you came in.. did you read it?" THe offending dancer can't reallty claim he didn't know that there were rules. (and as I said earlier.. if they dont' know HOW to follow the rules, they can say that to the organizer and maybe the organizer will point them in the right direction for instruction, or they will go back to their teacher and say "*** man! I have been taken lessons from you for x, and I went to a milonga and wasn't allowed to dance!"

The biggest problems seem to occur when the teacher(s) who don't give any attention to floorcraft is also the organizer(s) of the milongas.

In BsAs it’s assumed one knows the rules when entering a milonga. In most cases if you don’t follow the rules you’re shown the door. In the USA if we required everyone to follow the rules there’d be no one left to dance with. I guess our rule is there are no rules.
From reading the posts about London it sounds like you also have no enforceable rules so next week I’ll feel right at home.

 

[Zoopsia59]

[/i]
In BsAs it’s assumed one knows the rules when entering a milonga. In most cases if you don’t follow the rules you’re shown the door. In the USA if we required everyone to follow the rules there’d be no one left to dance with. I guess our rule is there are no rules.
From reading the posts about London it sounds like you also have no enforceable rules so next week I’ll feel right at home.

In BA everyone seems to follow the rules which proves that floorcraft can be emphasized enough that people learn it. And you're right in that there are consequences for not following them. Perhaps where you are in CA, the milongas would be empty if rules were enforced, but that's not true everywhere. The people here who grossly violate any kind of floorcraft are doing moves they got taught in the classes they took. If they had been taught differently, they would probably dance differently. And there are no consequenses for what they do, not even a shortage of partners since there are so many followers and so few leaders, so there's no incentive for them to change.

Interestingly, when my partner first went to BA, he said he took some lessons there (had had very little Arg Tango prior) and got shown all the "tango-for-export" steps. When he went to a milonga, he had no idea how to adapt (but at least he recognized that he needed to!) or how to dance in them. Many of the tango teachers even in BA teach fancy stuff and no social dance skills.. at least to tourists.

Then he got some instruction from the older milongueros (met Tete' and some others) did alot of observing, and also applied floorcraft he knew from ballroom and had more success on subsequent trips. It was during the time period that Daniel Trenner was beginning to really explore the purely social tango techniques touring with Rebecca Shulman and he took from them too when he got back to the states.

It seems even in BA, you have to really search for instruction in traditional social dancing.