Teachers who dance socially and those who don't, and their students

As written above, if you have a strong professional ethos, then your teaching is of a high quality. So why then also dance with your students in your free time at milongas? I'm rather curious about those teachers who dance socially with their students. There are sometimes unpleasant dependencies involved, which I've discussed in other threads.
The thing is @MediocresAires said "The difference is that they also dance socially." Socially doesn't necessarily mean dancing with their students, just dancing socially in the ronda along with everyone else. It does make a difference.
 
I recently danced with several somewhat beginners who I knew were taking classes with a particular local Argentinian instructor, who is NOT a performer. I was truly impressed with how they obviously had been taught very essential skills for social dancing. It was pleasant for me to dance with them despite differences in experience and their very limited vocabulary. Next time I see him, I will have to compliment him on that.
 
Recently I danced a very confusing tanda with a leader I didn't know yet. Afterwards I learned that he was a student of teachers from group A. After observing these teachers at milongas I started asking myself if these teachers can even produce students that are fit to dance socially. What do you think?
In this regard, I would tend to make a distinction between:
Group A: Teachers who provide feedback mainly verbally
Group B: Teachers who provide feedback mainly through body contact
Given teachers of group A, the task of providing effective feedback to the leaders falls primarily to the followers with whom they dance during the class, so they should chose them carefully.
 
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But if we're all being honest, I think it's pretty safe to say that performers condescend to social dancers more so than the other direction. Because performers gain accolades while social dancers, by definition, do not, many performers feel that those accolades constitute some sort of "proof" that they are better dancers. Writ large, not even just individually.
If we’re talking about stage tango performers, I feel like it’s quite opposite, social dancers condescend stage tango way more than vice versa since stage is just completely different and lacking a lot of the fundamental communicative aspects of tango in favor of choreography.
 
In my town, there are a few teachers offering regular AT classes, people attend them and dance socially. That's what I meant as teaching people to dance socially, so not sure what Opendoor had in mind ...
I think there's a certain hypocrisy in tango lessons. Of course it's constantly preached that students are being trained for the pista, but in reality, social tango isn't really supported. Dance students are the breadwinners for their teachers, so the immature tango student with a dedicated dance partner is the desired customer. In my town approximately 50 tango teachers are working, so I think I'm not biased.

It's not enough to explain the codigos and how to dance socially. Actually, teachers should kick their students out after the basic course: sink or swim. Breaking away from the tango teacher is a difficult act of emancipation, and the system loves immature tango students.

Furthermore, I probably understand social dancing much broader than you do, vit. Just attending the studio's own weekly social definitely isn't already at once true social dancing in my eyes. For me, social dancing rather is a state of independence.
 
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You explained it well and I perfectly understand that; it's not much different in social dance genres in my town I'm familiar with, just that town is not that big (with AT scene I'm not that familiar, but I meet AT dancers here and there as well and also attended some classes long ago)
 
It's not enough to explain the codigos and how to dance socially. Actually, teachers should kick their students out after the basic course: sink or swim.
And there's a thread on here about 'my first milonga', and also about various ideas of teaching syllabus. The point being that people signed up to learn to dance - and whatever goes with that. Hindsight is wonderful! You realise your dancing then wasn't great, possibly embarrassing, but you learned to improve it.

There are teachers who introduce their students to 'social' dancing by numerous means.
Dance students are the breadwinners for their teachers, so the immature tango student with a dedicated dance partner is the desired customer.
If there's a ready supply of beginners (as there were in many metropolitan areas), I don't think many realised the financial merits of retention since there were new, exciting, young recruits. They didn't need to, and it would involve extra levels of commitment and teaching as those progressed. So, then students go, unprepared, to some 'elite' milonga, get rejected, and give up. A few teachers were more mature and canny, and realise where their long-term finances come from. Those become 'known' and (usually) 'good'.
 
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It is taught here.
Some aspects are, some aren’t.
The navigation is atrocious here (the prev discontinued friday milonga literally had to tape lines on the floor to help with navigation (and it worked!))
A lot of the younger followers sorta dont look for cabeceos unless they’re point blank ones, which makes it so that style of cabeceo semi become the norm depending on the place.
Other than that, social tango is taught here.
 
Some aspects are, some aren’t.
The navigation is atrocious here (the prev discontinued friday milonga literally had to tape lines on the floor to help with navigation (and it worked!))
A lot of the younger followers sorta dont look for cabeceos unless they’re point blank ones, which makes it so that style of cabeceo semi become the norm depending on the place.
Other than that, social tango is taught here.
Part of learning social aspects is getting it wrong, and being corrected. The cabeceo/mirada aspect is a relic from the past which doesn't really have a meaning where the local culture has developed their own dance invitation etiquette for the environment. The environment is frequently the problem, so there's the 'walkaceo' and 'chateceo' to overcome this problem. But it's cute where it can work.

Lack of floorcraft is a significant problem in some places. The underlying issue is respecting others on the dancefloor and not making it all about your dance.

Maybe we were just fortunate with teachers and these things were explained and demonstrated.
 
The navigation is atrocious here
I hear that! We have the same problem, I believe (I don't know . . . hopefully somebody who posts here will visit and give me a reality check at some point). For me, the worst parts of this are:

1. Much of the worst navigation is by teachers, so even if they are teaching floorcraft in class, they are not teaching it with their actions. To quote the individual teaching me to teach tango: "What you do and how you do it – at the milonga as well as in class – is as or more influential on your students than what you tell them to do." This covers everything from ornaments, to facial expression, to navigation. I'd say that some teachers and other senior dancers believe that bad navigation is caused by "other people," and that their own weaving, rushing, stopping, and backing up is acceptable because it's them using their tango mastery to rectify a bad situation . . . even though in reality, they are worsening the situation both in that moment and, by setting a bad example for their students, in the future. If you chose to present yourself as a tango teacher, you gain a certain status but pay for it by sacrificing your right to be less than perfect whenever you dance locally.

2. And yet . . . the traditionalists' insistence on good floorcraft is alienating and one of the things militating against retention and choking off recruitment. At least here, people who come to tango with other dance experience come from slot or spot dances, typically salsa or some sort of swing. Those with no experience have mostly danced only at nightclubs and weddings, where you prance about in place. So, the insistence that not only you adapt to music you probably don't hear anywhere else, using movements you might never have seen before (e.g., people often find anything in cross system to be "bizarre"), but also do so down an imaginary line with lanes, feels to newcomers like veterans adding artificial difficulty to maintain an advantage over them.
A lot of the younger followers sorta dont look for cabeceos unless they’re point blank ones, which makes it so that style of cabeceo semi become the norm depending on the place.
Definitely.

We've had a major influx of younger dancers here since we were allowed back on the floor after the (worst of the) pandemic. To invoke my point #2 above, mirada-cabeceo is another thing that feels to them like veterans adding artificial difficulty to maintain an advantage. But unlike navigation, musicality, technique, vocabulary, etc., this is not a technical advantage – it's a social one. And younger people in the prime of their social lives arrive with a real advantage outside of tango's rarified codes, starting with being for the most part slimmer, fitter, and better-looking. So, they can and do push back, and the biggest pushback I've noticed is that they just toss mirada-cabeceo in the trash, and invite who they want how they want, end of discussion.

I have suffered from this going on around me. There are some dancers I simply cannot cabeceo because they don't even know why I'm looking their way . . . and anyway, they have a big group of fellow dancers who invite them "normally," like in nearly every other style of dance. But this doesn't mean I hate it. It just means I have to either learn a subsidiary skillset to invite that subset of dancers, or ignore that subset of dancers. Doing the latter might strike traditionalists as a good tough-love correction, but it also militates against retention and chokes off recruitment, because at first glance it seems not traditional, but merely snobby.

And while we can say that we don't need or want to dance around newcomers who have poor floorcraft or who reject mirada-cabeceo, guess what? They will be the good technical dancers of tomorrow, if we don't discourage them by grinding their faces in old codes they don't understand. Then we'll want them around.

So, it's looking a lot like a choice between "maintain old traditions, even if the technical dance dies" and "maintain the technical dance, even if the old traditions die." And to get on topic a bit: It's teachers who'll decide that, because as I said, "What you do and how you do it – at the milonga as well as in class – is as or more influential on your students than what you tell them to do."

I'm not claiming that I know the right choice, or have the answers to my many implicit questions! I'm just pointing out that many veterans are denying the very existence of the dilemma and associated questions. Ordinary dancers can probably afford to do so. Teachers cannot. Remaining neutral on traditional vs. technical, and letting questions be "somebody else's problem," are more things you sacrifice your right to do the instant you decide to present yourself as a tango teacher. Better a firm-but-controversial stance than a vague-but-safe one.
Other than that, social tango is taught here.
Same here for the most part. It's just that "social" is taken as the opposite of "show," and is used to label movements. It's less and less taken to have anything to do with "traditional." For the most part, when someone here says, "I dance social tango," they mean, "I don't dance huge and often risky movements intended for the stage when I am at the milonga," and not, "I accept the old social codes of the milonga."
Part of learning social aspects is getting it wrong, and being corrected.
And correction is hard in many cases, for reasons I called out above: Younger dancers are often living freer social lives than (i.e., they are unrestricted by spouses, careers, health, etc.), and are more attractive than, veterans. They're making their own social success, and don't feel the need to shrink socially due to having not mastered tango's old social codes. So, veterans correct these younger arrivals at their peril . . . at best, they might be getting themselves rejected for being sticks in the mud by an ever-growing percentage of the community, while at worst they are stifling recruitment and retention, helping to kill said community.
The cabeceo/mirada aspect is a relic from the past which doesn't really have a meaning where the local culture has developed their own dance invitation etiquette for the environment.
That nicely sums up part of what I've been saying! Mirada-cabeceo just doesn't mean anything to people who've come from clubs, other dance styles, and casual freestyle dance, who are accustomed to walking right up to the person they want to dance with. It's a case of "Ain't nobody got time for that!"
Lack of floorcraft is a significant problem in some places. The underlying issue is respecting others on the dancefloor and not making it all about your dance.
The more fundamental issue is that in many cases, people with bad tango floorcraft absolutely are capable of respecting others and not making it all about their dance in a slot/spot environment. But the moving line of dance is alien and an added level of difficulty, and having that thrust in their face as "how things must be" might work, but it could just as easily fail if they're confident dancers outside of tango. It can seem to them that the couple rapidly approaching them from behind are the ones not respecting others.

It's on teachers to call out and explicitly explain these different definitions of respect. It's also on teachers to do so not with an appeal to tradition – which especially annoys younger people – but from a purely technical angle: "In tango, walking is considered a step, and the single most important one, and there are movements like cadenas and progressive turns that work only when moving down the floor. So, to get the most out of your vocabulary, you have to be moving ahead most of the time, and the line of dance allows that." Then they have to teach more progressive figures than static ones.

Honestly, I think that hinting that static figures are more show than social would be a great pedagogical move. Unfortunately, there's a whole touchy-feely, "celebrate the pause," slow-tango crowd out there who prefer to park. They claim it's for emotion and connection, but facts on the ground, most of these people have a poor progressive dance game. Because you can connect and pause with a moving dance . . . it just that this takes better skills, and if you don't bother to learn those skills, tradition gives you the easy out of saying, "Well, we were savoring the pause." Sure, all 3:30 of it.
 
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Part of learning social aspects is getting it wrong, and being corrected. The cabeceo/mirada aspect is a relic from the past which doesn't really have a meaning where the local culture has developed their own dance invitation etiquette for the environment. The environment is frequently the problem, so there's the 'walkaceo' and 'chateceo' to overcome this problem. But it's cute where it can work.
I don't agree with the cabeceo/mirada being a relic. I frequently dance in countries where I do not speak the language - with a cabaceo I don't need to. Also very useful in crowded events where you can see the person but it would be difficult to make your way through the crowd to get near enough to speak.

OK its difficult to learn and it can feel awkward but when you get used to using it - it is wonderful. When I first started to travel I was terrible at it. Everyone used chateceo where I live and I could not get any dances using cabaceo when I travelled because I was terrible at it. So I learned.

I agree the local culture can become the dominant communication and enables you to discard the "outdated" cabaceo but at least for me and anyone who travels this is a mistake. I want to be able to dance when I travel and so I have learned the "universal" language of AT. Its a bit like learning English if it isn't your native tongue - you have a decent chance at communicating wherever you go. But if you speak another language, but not English, and never travel outside your home city why bother to learn everyone speaks the same language as you. But this excludes anyone who travels to your area from communicating - maybe one of the reasons people can find dancing in different areas "unfriendly"
 
I don't agree with the cabeceo/mirada being a relic. I frequently dance in countries where I do not speak the language - with a cabaceo I don't need to. Also very useful in crowded events where you can see the person but it would be difficult to make your way through the crowd to get near enough to speak.
It comes from the past. It's a 'relic' because it had another justification - about 'saving face' if turned down. That's no longer relevant today. Other cultures and dances manage to invite - and have fun. I don't object either if a woman comes over to invite me for a tanda.

I travel to other countries as well - where English is not the first language. Perhaps I don't go to those milongas which try to be elitist and their idea of 'traditional'. But, as the good book, says: when in Rome... I observe the game in play. I also find out how to invite for a dance, to say please, thank-you, hello, goodbye, etc. If cabeceo/mirada is the game in play, so be it. I can do that. However I rarely find the environment to be conducive, so other invitation methods become relevant. It's a part of the invitation arsenal - and less significant with a younger group.

We've found both friendly and unfriendly milongas throughout the world. Most recently where English was the language. The only people we 'met' were another couple from the other end of the UK who had the same view - although I did have a couple of good tandas with 2 local ladies who were 'advanced' but didn't seem to get invited often enough.

Attended another milonga nearby on the same bus route and it was totally different and really friendly. Even had some people there from the previous milonga. Interestingly got talking to an out-of-town visitor who said the same.
 
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