opendoor
Forum Master
But the way you put it stylistically seems pretty normative, are you really not aware of that?
The apilado equation
- Thread starter spectator
- Start date
But the way you put it stylistically seems pretty normative, are you really not aware of that?
JournalInTime
Forum Master
Agreed.
At least where I live and dance, more dancers could benefit from dancing more non-progressing figures, as long as they stick to ones that occur inside the space already claimed by their couple. A common situation is that oblivious couples entering the floor without looking first create local traffic jams that have nothing to do with steps and everything to do with bad etiquette before they even take a step. This stops the ronda and crowds the floor, so you spend a lot of time (sometimes entire tangos!) parked with no space in front or behind.
But, you "own" the space from the leg that's farthest back (usually the leader's) and the one that's farthest forward (usually the follower's), which can be fairly large if you share any weight at all. Anybody intruding into that space is at fault, not those claiming it. When things stop moving, you can use the interior legs to do whatever you like – including volcadas. I know that some people are averse to invisible weight changes to sustain such movements, have a problem with dancing in cross system most of the time, dislike leader and follower stepping on different notes, etc. . . . but all of that is bog-standard tango mechanics, so it's a choice to ignore those tools in the box.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
I should add that the choice not to use all the tricks that allow a fun dance without advancing is a selfish one, as it implies that you'll try to walk forward despite a traffic jam, meaning you'll be tailgating, passing, even running into couples who've politely stopped moving to respect the realities of the floor. The so-called "Mundial dancers" I grumble about are the worst for this, taking huge steps down the floor regardless of the space available.
I read about all these beginners who block the floor with too many paradas, and all these nuevo dancers who block the floor with off-axis movements and scythe-like boleos, but I rarely see these people. What I regularly see are experienced dancers who think their seniority extends them a divine right to (1) enter the floor wherever and whenever they like, even when it's too crowded, and without establishing eye contact with the couple approaching them, and (2) walk, with the excuse that tango is a walking dance and "good dancers" ought to be walking. Honestly, these people are the problem.
Which, more on-topic, is why a bit more lean, apilado, volcada, or whatever word you like for it is a good thing. If you always dance that way, you always have just a bit more space inside your couple, because this /\ tends to be longer than this ||, So, when things inevitably stop, you can play in the interior without advancing, retreating, or turning in ways that sent protruding body parts into other lanes. In fact, as long as all the action happens inside (front boleos, volcadas, entanglements, etc.), I can't see how it's a problem for anybody.
I read about all these beginners who block the floor with too many paradas, and all these nuevo dancers who block the floor with off-axis movements and scythe-like boleos, but I rarely see these people. What I regularly see are experienced dancers who think their seniority extends them a divine right to (1) enter the floor wherever and whenever they like, even when it's too crowded, and without establishing eye contact with the couple approaching them, and (2) walk, with the excuse that tango is a walking dance and "good dancers" ought to be walking. Honestly, these people are the problem.
Which, more on-topic, is why a bit more lean, apilado, volcada, or whatever word you like for it is a good thing. If you always dance that way, you always have just a bit more space inside your couple, because this /\ tends to be longer than this ||, So, when things inevitably stop, you can play in the interior without advancing, retreating, or turning in ways that sent protruding body parts into other lanes. In fact, as long as all the action happens inside (front boleos, volcadas, entanglements, etc.), I can't see how it's a problem for anybody.
It might seem so to you but I've long repeatedly stated
that what I say is an alternative to the conventional
teaching and that there is an improvising alternative to
classes of steps, moves and choreographed patterns.
On the one hand it's a counterweight to your own emphatic
emphasis on step projection, derived from show dancers,
and on the other an alternative to the rigidity of certain
European teaching that "Tango is Walking to Music"
whereas for me Tango is a dance of the music.
I've long given up any idea that what I write is persuasive
of posters on here - it was earlier that someone here, writing
to justify his position, stated that amongst other named static
moves a giro is also static. I was repeatedly taught it as static.
But a giro is any turn and I could dance multiple 360 degree
turns while moving down the floor at whatever progress
the floor demands. Probably that won't bother most here,
they will continue to do the choreographed giro they learned
by executing backwards and forward steps with swivels
around a chair.
There really are others seeking something else.
And some even read all this rubbish!
Before leaving this topic to its own devices my advice,
for what it's worth, is for tango dancers to break out of
the limited tango bubble to learn and to practise other dances.
Avoid the aesthetically artificial contrivances of ballet and ballroom,
to try any swing/jive variation, Latin maybe because a man has to
move rhythmically and even Tap! It would be educational
to those whose dance world begins and ends with Tango.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Indeed. However, the local audience watches. To quote T&C: "the milongueros see everything."
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
I agree with you, but this piece, while far from simple, fits. Not my first choice, but it is certainly danceable and has some beautiful passages.
Try less condescencion maybe. Especially when you haven't the slightest clue how anyone here actually dances.
Well, true . . . but
The local audience as at any social dance
are dancers themselves and know what they
are watching. An informed audience if you like.
Milongueros didn't like to see extroverts on the floor,
let alone dance amongst them.
To counterbalance, remember the common
dance saying - "dance as if no-one is watching".
Condescension!!!! I think not.
That would be perceived as much worse.
I think you're just causing trouble for the sake of it.
Stop moaning, get a life and cheer up!
You yourself write on here without solid knowledge of
how people individually and personally dance - we all do
And as dancers, we all should be able to have some sort
of clue from what posters write. And it's what posters
write that I respond to, and don't we all do that?
Yes, and my understanding is that most of the experienced leaders here including myself are NOT dancing choreographed sequences. For the sake of politeness I'll leave it at that.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
Moving roughly in the middle of your space can also mean dancing a bit against the direction of dance. Like with volcadas, I can assure you, nothing happens, no lightning flashes down from the sacred tango heaven.
Apart from the sarcasm which I will ignore,
this seems to betray a lack of understanding
and gives a strong clue about the kind of tango
you have been taught and dance amongst.
The taught choreographed move of volcadas
generally has no place on a busy crowded floor.
Not knowing your floor typical floor conditions,
the result of random individual static moves
like this around the floor is disruptive on a busy floor.
It's not just you, it's the erratic stopping, blocking
by others around the floor. Nor can you count on
having some invisible space behind you. Just
how large is this invisible space?
The best advice I've ever heard about floorcraft
is to follow the mantra of once you left the space
don't go back (after all you cannot see behind).
This subtly promotes the slow inexorable progress
forwards. There is something else beneficial
to this - you are almost never being pressed from
behind because you are always escaping forward.
On a really crowded floor that sort of organisation
really helps everyone to be able to dance.
If only everyone knew it and did it.
LadyLeader
Forum Master
Volgadas can be done in any direction by turning the figure in a suitable direction!. For me the volgada requirement is that the feet distance is slightly more than usual. So I can create it by stepping myself or by leading her step to create the distance and following her with my upper body.
I have also walking volgadas in line where she has her back to the tables and takes sidesteps with the right leg. I lead her left leg in a circle to a front cross followed by a new sidestep. I am moving in line of dance, abrazo is V.
I have also walking volgadas in line where she has her back to the tables and takes sidesteps with the right leg. I lead her left leg in a circle to a front cross followed by a new sidestep. I am moving in line of dance, abrazo is V.
I disagree. Volcadas are improvised movements that are clear lead and follow not a choreographed movement. Further they are within the frame of the couple and usually lead at an angle to the line of dance. They can be lead safely on a crowded floor. Are these the kind of volcadas that would rouse a cheer from an audience? Doubtful
I’ve found that static movements are an important piece of vocabulary for crowded floors. When there is a mix of experienced and inexperienced dancers on the piste pile-ups are inevitable.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
I'm not as experienced as many people here – just eight-and-a-half years – but I've never seen this mythic ronda that advances constantly at a stately pace. I watch not individuals but the entire floor intently when not dancing, and I know what's holding it up: Couples entering without looking, causing traffic jams that propagate around the floor for a duration out of proportion to the time the rude entry took (five seconds to step in, 30 to sort out, constantly renewed as each new impolite couple steps in). Another thing I've never seen is this fabled hell ronda held up by static movements . . .
As for volcadas, I'm not sure where the idea that they're choreographed comes from. They happen anytime the leader steps away from the follower without either leading the follower to come along or anchoring the follower with a downlead. The natural reaction to that is (1) the partners lean, and (2) free legs spill into the lean. What would be choreographed would be stepping with the leader without being led, or not letting the free leg spill when it wasn't anchored by a lead . . . either would be a follower deciding "the leader meant this" rather than just going with the flow. When I dance, many ochos cortados are tiny volcadas because I like how it looks and feels, and I often play cross-uncross games with the free leg, which amount to linear volcadas, but the difference from "no volcada" is perhaps 15-20 cm, usually 45° to the line of dance and thus toward the outside of the ronda, not another couple.
I agree that huge show volcadas where the follower is practically doing the splits are a terrible idea on a crowded floor, but I've seen that so rarely that I could name the places where I've seen it and the people who did it. It's hardly a huge problem with traffic at the milonga. That's those rude couples barging in, as well as the "I'm going to walk forward because it's a walking dance!" purists who can't take a clue that now isn't the time to walk.
As for volcadas, I'm not sure where the idea that they're choreographed comes from. They happen anytime the leader steps away from the follower without either leading the follower to come along or anchoring the follower with a downlead. The natural reaction to that is (1) the partners lean, and (2) free legs spill into the lean. What would be choreographed would be stepping with the leader without being led, or not letting the free leg spill when it wasn't anchored by a lead . . . either would be a follower deciding "the leader meant this" rather than just going with the flow. When I dance, many ochos cortados are tiny volcadas because I like how it looks and feels, and I often play cross-uncross games with the free leg, which amount to linear volcadas, but the difference from "no volcada" is perhaps 15-20 cm, usually 45° to the line of dance and thus toward the outside of the ronda, not another couple.
I agree that huge show volcadas where the follower is practically doing the splits are a terrible idea on a crowded floor, but I've seen that so rarely that I could name the places where I've seen it and the people who did it. It's hardly a huge problem with traffic at the milonga. That's those rude couples barging in, as well as the "I'm going to walk forward because it's a walking dance!" purists who can't take a clue that now isn't the time to walk.