The apilado equation

[ArbeeNYC]

As usual we are left to define things such as "very, very little" and "not leaning as much as to fall ahead."

Portland was? known for a long time as a "close embrace" town, less so as the years went by in my experience. Out of all the local instructors, one had a degree in physics. That was Alex Krebs. https://pamplinmedia.com/sb/75-feat...hysics-major-turns-tango-teacher-in-southeast
When asked how much pressure there should be between partners in what he taught as "close embrace," he would answer 3 pounds.

Aye, there's the rub, given that it's all subjective. I've taken workshops with Alex Krebs, he's a good teacher, interesting guy. The term "apilado" is not very useful in learning tango. Miller's idea of teaching people how to embrace is better. With a good follower, that connection can be very solid, tight and close, without jeopardizing anyone's balance. It's more a question of how and when the follower moves her free leg. I should also add that this has a lot to do with the relative height and weight of the partners. One part of me believes that the key here is holding your partner snugly.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Before getting into the "equation" part of this, I have some thoughts on how we perceive "lean."

Here's a link to one of the very few pix I've shared here.

Apilado con el viento

There was QUITE the breeze at the time. I got my friend to snap the picture just before it slowed noticeably and I had to step forward to keep from falling over. Unfortunately, you can't see my feet, but I think it's easy to see that the wind was holding me up.

I recreated this pose some time after the trip, but without the wind! Then I started drawing lines though various parts of my anatomy that COULD be considered to be a measurement of how much I was "leaning." What I concluded was that when we look at a dancer, or dancers in an embrace, there can be quite the variation in assigning a value to the amount of lean we see.

 

[opendoor]

...As Opendoor consistently comments, many people consider the "lean" to be an "illusion"....

Actually, I meant it exactly the other way around: most people understand lean literally. There are two kinds of attempts in apilado. Some (mostly followers) are totally untrained and lean on their dance partner. Without the counterforce they would tip over, that weak they are. The others group (mostly leaders) would have the required body control, but misinterpret their role models and build up too much counterforce.

I just wanted to point out that a comfortable apilado is quite difficult and not aimed at mediocre dancers. Unfortunately, most of the apilado dancers in my community are/were (they are in their 70s now) poor or mediocre dancers. These people either cannot dance openly, they would lurch and stumble. But this fact is not noticeable from the outside in the apilado embrace.

Thus I'm with gyb and Susana:

..The mentioned workshop was a late attempt by Susana to correct this overreaction..

As I wrote in my comment about generations and change of style (Villa Urquiza style) last week, the first tango generation in Europe danced estilo escenario in an open position. Of course, every majority creates an opposition movement. Unfortunately, in the camp of milonguero style all the losers gathered who couldn't keep up with escenario. They concealed their deficits as inwardness, affiliation and deep connection.

 

[Tangogal]

I’m sorry! It was me who brought it up.

I was never fortunate enough to take workshops with Susana Miller so cannot comment on her classes. I was taught Apillado as being a mutual lean as opposed to volcado where only the follower is leaning. I was also taught that the couple has a shared axis. I understand this to mean that should either partner “magically vaporise” the other would fall. Rightly, or wrongly, I think this is what is generally thought by the term Apillado.

It’s not a style I find comfortable probably because as @opendoor said most of the proponents are very middling to poor dancers relying on their partner to maintain balance for both.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I understand this to mean that should either partner “magically vaporise” the other would fall. Rightly, or wrongly, I think this is what is generally thought by the term Apillado.

Wrongly, I believe.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Here's a link to one of the very few pix I've shared here.

Whoa! That's quite the lean. I don't know anyone who dances that way though. Certainly not for long. I don't think that's what is meant by the term.

 

[opendoor]

..was taught Apillado as being a mutual lean as opposed to volcado where only the follower is leaning..

..but the leader has to compensate her lean. So, with other word, both have to build up power. I usually speak of volcadized steps (in contrary to colgadized steps) to indicate that the gravity points of either dancer meets the resulting force vector.

Historically seen, Apilado in the original sense was assigned to the dancing style of the barrio Almagro.
Have fun reading the 1999 Clarin article by Laura Falcoff.

 

[Tangogal]

Whoa! That's quite the lean. I don't know anyone who dances that way though. Certainly not for long. I don't think that's what is meant by the term.

I know one couple who dance like that! It’s very strange to watch. I’m always afraid they’ll topple over.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Here are some interesting definitions that are a bit more precise than th eones we as dancers usually encounter, but maybe not too useful for most of us. They are from the paper I cited above.

Centre of mass (COM) is a point equivalent of the total body mass in the global reference system (GRS)
and is the weighed average of the COM of each body segment in 3D space.

The vertical projection of the COM onto the ground is often called the centre of gravity. (COG)
It's awful hard, if not impossible, to visually identify the COG with any accuracy, I think. This is why I have repeatedly been disappointed by dancing with someone who had a seemingly pronounced forward lean, only to find out that it was NOT indicative of any significant weight sharing.

I grabbed these numbers from somewhere... You could do your own numbers... somehow.
20 yr old US
COG male 57% of standing height
COG females 55% of standing height


Body segments for women... Table C1 from Physics... should be able to find stats for men also.
College age Women Gymnasts
% of % of
Weight Length
Head 9.4 -
Trunk 50.8 30
Thigh 8.3 24.7
Shank 5.5 25.6
Foot 1.2 -
75.2 80.3
Remainder is arms / hands

So, yeah, there are people measuring these things.

Now, here's an actual equation that I think is pertinent to the subject of apilado from Physics and the Art of Dance by Kenneth Law.

Fp = W (Lc/H)

I think I did a run with the equation presented in the OP here. Still looking into that, but will proceed with the one from Law.

 

[itwillhappen]

As I wrote in my comment about generations and change of style (Villa Urquiza style) last week, the first tango generation in Europe danced estilo escenario in an open position. Of course, every majority creates an opposition movement. Unfortunately, in the camp of milonguero style all the losers gathered who couldn't keep up with escenario. They concealed their deficits as inwardness, affiliation and deep connection.

I think the inexperienced are the natural plague of the respective fashion wave. Now with non/neo/alt music you can see the beginners in an open hold doing things that they did not master. And experienced close embrace dancers stand quietly on the sidelines and wait for suitable music and a suitable dance partner.

 

[Tangogal]

I think the inexperienced are the natural plague of the respective fashion wave. Now with non/neo/alt music you can see the beginners in an open hold doing things that they did not master. And experienced close embrace dancers stand quietly on the sidelines and wait for suitable music and a suitable dance partner.

I think the inexperienced are absolutely essential to keep the dance alive. So what if they’re doing silly things or dancing to silly music. The experienced dancers can just dance among themselves or take a rest. As long as there’s a reasonable balance or the milonga is advertised as alternative music there’s no problem.

 

[itwillhappen]

I think the inexperienced are absolutely essential to keep the dance alive. So what if they’re doing silly things or dancing to silly music. The experienced dancers can just dance among themselves or take a rest. As long as there’s a reasonable balance or the milonga is advertised as alternative music there’s no problem.

Of course. A misunderstanding. I just wanted to show in response to @opendoor that the wheel keeps turning, a bit exaggerated, pointed. The experienced nuevo dancers once regarded the milonguero dancers as incompetent invalids. And now the experienced milonguero dancers regard the neo dancers as incompetent jumping jacks.

 

[Tangogal]

I refer to the posture where you tilt your body forward until you meet your partner, each maintaining their own axis, as A-frame. Apilado was taught as weight-sharing and maintaining a single axis. Are these wrong or not current definitions?

 

[itwillhappen]

12 years ago I participated in a memorable workshop given by Susana Miller (who is often credited with introducing the term "milonguero style", and who was to a considerable extent responsible for this style of tango dancing to spread in the US). Susana talked a lot about how people misinterpret the lean of apilado and how Gavito stage-tango videos completely misrepresent the extent of the lean, and then spent almost half the class just walking around and hugging leaders to show just how much lean is involved in apilado. In short: very very little: there is a real hug, and the two axes are not completely independent, but the follower is not leaning as much as to fall ahead if the leader suddenly got vaporized.

An excellent description I think. I had a memorable private lesson when Susana Miller was in Germany maybe three years ago. Apilado was definitely not her topic, IMHO also not how milongueros originally danced. She tried downright desperately to teach what she can feel. I have heard several times that in workshops that creates massive stress, especially among leaders. In a private lesson it was a game changer for me.
With a hardened chest, I never even came into the embrace. And then she broke off several times because she felt that my focus was moving away from her. It took a while before we found out, cheek-to-cheek, that my eyes turned a little to the side at the last moment. And then she began to point out to me around the frame, 360 degrees, where I don't really feel her, where she can't really feel me. Until then no step was done.

 

[Rabbit]

Of course. A misunderstanding. I just wanted to show in response to @opendoor that the wheel keeps turning, a bit exaggerated, pointed. The experienced nuevo dancers once regarded the milonguero dancers as incompetent invalids. And now the experienced milonguero dancers regard the neo dancers as incompetent jumping jacks.

Rather, the wheel was broken, and neither half recognized its own incompleteness.