newbie
Well-Known Member
I am not sure what is the point you are trying to make
I seemed clear enough to me.
Are you trying to bait me?
In most forums there are rules against baiting.
The Booty Misconception
- Thread starter TomTango
- Start date
I seemed clear enough to me.
Are you trying to bait me?
In most forums there are rules against baiting.
Actually I found that post confusing as well. Maybe tangotarian is just looking for clarification.
An interesting article (to me), on the apilado embrace.
http://tangonorthamerica.com/tango-talk/the-secrets-of-apilado-dancing/
Here is a teaser:
http://tangonorthamerica.com/tango-talk/the-secrets-of-apilado-dancing/
Here is a teaser:
Apilado dancing is the way to increase the connection and intimacy in the embrace and it is most often used in the social tango. Since it is required to lean on the partner, for many people it is the ultimate challenge, much harder than the most complicated steps.
. . .
Oh how many things in tango are controversial and cause for a major debates. This is because there is no one right way of dancing – and one can say that all of the approaches, if they are respectful, are valid
Apilado dancing is not on the repertoire of the 99% of the teachers I know. And, yet, it is one of the best ways to make the strong physical connection with the partner.
– That is magical. I do not know what and how you do it, but when I first felt it, it was amazing. Scary but amazing – she laughed.
. . .
. . .
Oh how many things in tango are controversial and cause for a major debates. This is because there is no one right way of dancing – and one can say that all of the approaches, if they are respectful, are valid
Apilado dancing is not on the repertoire of the 99% of the teachers I know. And, yet, it is one of the best ways to make the strong physical connection with the partner.
– That is magical. I do not know what and how you do it, but when I first felt it, it was amazing. Scary but amazing – she laughed.
. . .
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Here is another article that compares the terms, milonguero style and apilado, along with some history of where the terms came from, and different opinions about them.
https://tangovoice.wordpress.com/2011/06/22/is-tango-apilado-equivalent-to-tango-milonguero/
Here is the intro:
https://tangovoice.wordpress.com/2011/06/22/is-tango-apilado-equivalent-to-tango-milonguero/
Here is the intro:
Is Tango Apilado Equivalent to Tango Milonguero?
The term ‘milonguero style tango’ (‘tango estilo milonguero’) was coined by Susana Miller in the early 1990s to describe the style of dancing tango that was prevalent in the milongas of downtown Buenos Aires in the 1950s. This stylistic variant of tango is commonly called simply ‘tango milonguero’ in Buneos Aires today, although the term ‘milonguero style tango’ still appears to predominate in English-speaking countries.
The term ‘milonguero style tango’ (‘tango estilo milonguero’) was coined by Susana Miller in the early 1990s to describe the style of dancing tango that was prevalent in the milongas of downtown Buenos Aires in the 1950s. This stylistic variant of tango is commonly called simply ‘tango milonguero’ in Buneos Aires today, although the term ‘milonguero style tango’ still appears to predominate in English-speaking countries.
That's a very informative article.
Note that bad posture is not required for apilado, but is symptomatic of either poor instruction or poor implementation of good instruction.
But, I have to disagree with the author's conclusion that,
"‘tango apilado’ is not a useful category label for the classification of tango stylistic variation."
That statement is perhaps true for those observing a couple dancing. It is certainly not true for someone within the couple, since it is rather easy to perceive the degree to which a partner is sharing weight.
(Use of the term "lean on" is misleading, since partners put an equal amount of "weight" towards each other when at rest. It's just more obvious to an observer, since the woman is most often shorter and weighs less. Most really good hugs involve a fair amount of force joining the two bodies, so there.)
Long time readers here know that MY definition of apilado involves the creation of a shared axis where a partner withdrawing their weight will induce movement in the partner. Having a term to describe that is to my way of thinking very useful.
Note that bad posture is not required for apilado, but is symptomatic of either poor instruction or poor implementation of good instruction.
But, I have to disagree with the author's conclusion that,
"‘tango apilado’ is not a useful category label for the classification of tango stylistic variation."
That statement is perhaps true for those observing a couple dancing. It is certainly not true for someone within the couple, since it is rather easy to perceive the degree to which a partner is sharing weight.
(Use of the term "lean on" is misleading, since partners put an equal amount of "weight" towards each other when at rest. It's just more obvious to an observer, since the woman is most often shorter and weighs less. Most really good hugs involve a fair amount of force joining the two bodies, so there.)
Long time readers here know that MY definition of apilado involves the creation of a shared axis where a partner withdrawing their weight will induce movement in the partner. Having a term to describe that is to my way of thinking very useful.
I wonder if it wouldn't be more correct to say they put equal force rather than equal weight? Hello? Physics or Engineering people? (Dchester, this should be right up your alley)
For example, because of the height and weight difference, I can give Dchester a fair amount of my weight before he needs to really give much back or feel as though I'm pushing him over, requiring counterbalancing.
In an ironic twist on the concept, I find the leaders who most need to actually be forward to do any counterbalancing based on size (or even basic connecting without counterbalancing) are also the ones who want most to dance in a completely upright stance with their weight over the arches of their foot, making a connection less through the chest and more through the follower's left tricep on their right bicep. The leaders that are "sturdy" enough that I could actually lean on them are usually forward enough that I wouldn't need to in order to make a good torso connection.
Angel HI
Well-Known Member
Tagontarion, Firstly welcome to the DF. Secondly, thank you; you have unintentionally, yet directly, IMHO, brought some of the most well-thought, well-posted, and well conducted comments to the AT forum that there have been in a long time. There are so many good posts following your initial one that I did not reference them here.
I simply will add or iterate that poor posture has nothing to do with the style of dance which one does. If your posture is poor in general, it will tend to find its way into your dance at some point. Be very leery and weary of labels. Adults tend to way...WAY... over-categorize things (the absurdity is that this often overly complicates the very thing that they are trying to simplify). An example is mentioned above when Suzanna used the term 'milonguero' to simply mean 'the way the milongueros danced', non-Argentines (mostly Americans) turned it into a categorized and labeled dance style. As mentioned, Gavito took apilado to the extreme. This was not the origin or definition of apilado as a categorized dance style; it is the definition of extreme styling. Gavito said to me once that, "...all [styles] of AT may be danced apilado o conaire..." (close or not). He went on to say, for what it's worth here, that knowing how to do do this well, is the secret to dancing to an optimal potential.
Lastly, forgive me for assuming your level of newness, and for iterating previous posts, but, again, in the vein of being careful of labels..... Know that in the early days of the modern resurgence of AT, the term chest-to-chest was also a misunderstood or miscategorized labwl. The Argentines said this, but it is not what they meant. Perhaps, it was as simple as just the difference in translation, but what they meant when they said to lead from the chest was to lead from the center. Adults, again, being ignorant of how words and/or concepts do not always translate literally, and misunderstanding what they were seeing in the dance, took this to literally mean to push the partner around with chest. Of course, we know today that even in the so-called close-embrace, the lead is from a core center movement (regardless of lean), and not from shoving the lady around with one's chest.
I simply will add or iterate that poor posture has nothing to do with the style of dance which one does. If your posture is poor in general, it will tend to find its way into your dance at some point. Be very leery and weary of labels. Adults tend to way...WAY... over-categorize things (the absurdity is that this often overly complicates the very thing that they are trying to simplify). An example is mentioned above when Suzanna used the term 'milonguero' to simply mean 'the way the milongueros danced', non-Argentines (mostly Americans) turned it into a categorized and labeled dance style. As mentioned, Gavito took apilado to the extreme. This was not the origin or definition of apilado as a categorized dance style; it is the definition of extreme styling. Gavito said to me once that, "...all [styles] of AT may be danced apilado o conaire..." (close or not). He went on to say, for what it's worth here, that knowing how to do do this well, is the secret to dancing to an optimal potential.
Lastly, forgive me for assuming your level of newness, and for iterating previous posts, but, again, in the vein of being careful of labels..... Know that in the early days of the modern resurgence of AT, the term chest-to-chest was also a misunderstood or miscategorized labwl. The Argentines said this, but it is not what they meant. Perhaps, it was as simple as just the difference in translation, but what they meant when they said to lead from the chest was to lead from the center. Adults, again, being ignorant of how words and/or concepts do not always translate literally, and misunderstanding what they were seeing in the dance, took this to literally mean to push the partner around with chest. Of course, we know today that even in the so-called close-embrace, the lead is from a core center movement (regardless of lean), and not from shoving the lady around with one's chest.
Force would be the correct term, as weight is a force that comes from gravity. If one person actually was giving more force than the other, the person using less force would be moving back as a result.
FWIW, I find that students seem to understand the concept, when I use the term, pressure.
Yes, I don't use the terms weight or force either. "Force" is especially tricky because you don't want anyone to assume you mean "overcoming resistance". I learned the hard way that you also have to be careful using any terms that might be taken for fat shaming (so "weight" is a word you should probably avoid!). I once told a female student that she felt "heavy" in a move. What I meant was that she was hard to lead because she wasn't moving herself and I had to use "force". It had nothing to do with her body weight. But she was very offended because she thought I was commenting on her body, not her dancing technique. I tried to quickly clarify, but it just got MORE awkward instead of less.
You'd think with all the words we have, we wouldn't have so much trouble finding the ones that work!
[quite]when Suzanna used the term 'milonguero' to simply mean 'the way the milongueros danced', non-Argentines (mostly Americans) turned it into a categorized and labeled dance style[/quote]
16:59
Cacho, the style and definition of tango milonguero How did it come about?
Look, Susana and I didn't know how to name it, but...
Pardon, but you wanted something to differentiate it from the rest.
.
.
.
19:38
Before, you were going to say how it was when you and Susana Miller began wanting to spread this Tango.
You had to make it different and..
How did the name came (sic) up?
Susana asked me. "And how were they calling you?
I replied. "They were calling us milongueros."
20:52
Sure, they were calling us that way, we were milongueros.
So we gave it the name "estilo milonguero."
It's tango salon, but danced body to body, danced with a close embrace
Based on this interview, it sounds to me like Cacho and Susana labeled: "the style," ie "this Tango."
Here are my notes from a class with Susana from 2004.
"Lead with the chest. Extreme straight and leaning posture. Somewhat wider stance than I’d been taught. Should be room between feet, while woman’s feet are together."
BTW, no one I've ever taken lessons from has ever described dancing apilado as "shoving the lady around with one's chest." Nor have I ever heard anyone who has had lessons in a style that features weight sharing (force sharing? maybe not) to create a shared axis talk about it that way.
16:59
Cacho, the style and definition of tango milonguero How did it come about?
Look, Susana and I didn't know how to name it, but...
Pardon, but you wanted something to differentiate it from the rest.
.
.
.
19:38
Before, you were going to say how it was when you and Susana Miller began wanting to spread this Tango.
You had to make it different and..
How did the name came (sic) up?
Susana asked me. "And how were they calling you?
I replied. "They were calling us milongueros."
20:52
Sure, they were calling us that way, we were milongueros.
So we gave it the name "estilo milonguero."
It's tango salon, but danced body to body, danced with a close embrace
Based on this interview, it sounds to me like Cacho and Susana labeled: "the style," ie "this Tango."
Here are my notes from a class with Susana from 2004.
"Lead with the chest. Extreme straight and leaning posture. Somewhat wider stance than I’d been taught. Should be room between feet, while woman’s feet are together."
BTW, no one I've ever taken lessons from has ever described dancing apilado as "shoving the lady around with one's chest." Nor have I ever heard anyone who has had lessons in a style that features weight sharing (force sharing? maybe not) to create a shared axis talk about it that way.
Angel HI
Well-Known Member
I have heard the same thing/s from her at times when we were together (and, of course, it's difficult to directly attribute complete meaning/intent w/o the rest of the story).
That's good.
I quite like the idea of (gentle) pressure, much better than force
or, that wretched term, shared weight. But I've come to prefer
forward intention. Zoopsia has commented in the past how she
has found herself becoming more upright, less lean, and that
is how many argentine social dancers are able to dance for hours.
Latin dancers in general are forward weighted to the balls of the feet,
and, despite the intermittent support of heels, so are many tango dancers.
That forward weighting of both partners leads to a connection/intention
at the upper chest, not at the lower position nearer to the centre
as used by ballroom. It shouldn't be forceful nor stressful of posture
although the connection is very positive; if I step back the best partners
stay with me without thinking and without even the necessity of arms.
I have to say that posture, good or bad, is highly influential on the
success or otherwise of the partnership - more so than any other
dance I know. And it certainly also depends on each partner controlling
their own weight, moving their own centres and creating their own axes.
As Zoopsia indicates, words are indeed difficult to describe this.
Dance is dynamic, and there are many variations even within
one partnership and one dance of that partnership.
Tagontarian
New Member
Thanks for the welcome. Sometimes unintended consequences can be good
I won't disagree. Though I will have to add a note here that with some styles, people are prone to make more mistakes than did others. That usually happens because they don't fully get the mechanics of execution and probably haven't got it corrected. And therefore (bad) habits develop.
Couldn't agree more. Especially when it comes to dances that have grown out of cultural traditions. The evolution is often non-linear. On top of that things can get lost in translation. Without common understanding of the meanings of labels, it makes conversation about the subject more difficult. At some level to communicate effectively, I think labels are useful. But when they have a checkered history, we have to be more careful.
Taking it to an extreme for show/stage tango vs social dancing is where I think the debate is. Not saying he is responsible for what many subsequent teachers started teaching as "Apilado" to social dancers.
Forgiven
I couldn't have said it better!
As a leader sometimes this is a source of frustration for me - some followers are so tuned to wanting that lead to come from the chest than from the core. They will try to lean harder against the leader or not follow properly. Yes I can adjust to that, by leaning in a bit more and making a movement upper torso a bit more pronounced, but that is not something I enjoy dancing. The good thing about leading with the core is that it doesn't matter whether the embrace is open or close (and that's not just for Tango, but applies to almost all other dances).
Tagontarian
New Member
No. I assume you meant 'trolling'. Not sure what 'baiting' would be.
I wasn't sure what you were implying in your first response to my post. On top of that it was not possible to tell whether you were being sarcastic, snarky or just matter of fact, in that particular response. Because you made certain references but never clarified directly what point you were trying to get across.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
Especially if a follower closes her eyes, I lead with every contact I have, maybe from the cheek down to the thigh, in some situations with my arms and my hands. But normally I lead with a consistent frame around her and rather with my back than my chest. Ok, I move from my core, but I can't map that to leading from my core.