The Booty Misconception

The leading technique in milonguero style is called step projection. Milonguero style isn't a democratic animal. So, if a follower is less responsive, your projection wasn't clear.
If I understand your use of word 'step projection', then you are negating what I said. Let me restate - some dancers are so focused on the 'chest projection' that they are less responsive or at loss with 'step projection'. Or in other words they don't understand 'step projection'.
 

Steve Pastor

Moderator
Staff member
they don't understand 'step projection'
I guess I'm one of 'they' because this is a term that I don't ever remember hearing here in AT PDX. And I'm not exactly a newbie.
So, would those of you who are in the know elucidate ('splain it)?
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
Whose style?

There is no one milonguero dance,
but so-called step projection essentially emerged
from show tango, an exaggerated visual style.
He said milonguero style, not dance. It's not about a specific person.

Susana Miller coined the term. Maybe you honestly don't know what the term Milonguero Style means (although I doubt it). In any case, most of us do know what (more or less is meant by it). To the extent you are confused by the term, or dislike the term, your questions and comments might be better addressed to her.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
He said milonguero style, not dance. It's not about a specific person.

Susana Miller coined the term. Maybe you honestly don't know what the term Milonguero Style means (although I doubt it). In any case, most of us do know what (more or less is meant by it). To the extent you are confused by the term, or dislike the term, your questions and comments might be better addressed to her.
My only confusion is about why you decided to write such
a personally slanted post now, some time after that part
of the discussion and which actually seems to misinterpret
what I have said.

Milonguero style was a marketing invention.
Reading my previous posts would make that clear.
We weren't discussing this with Susana Miller and
I wasn't aware she was present on this forum!

However now in BsAs socially the term milonguero/a
is a term of endearment, of praise even. But it's much
more general than the specific teaching of one teaching
couple. It's applied to those dancers who dance
unflinchingly in an parallel embrace, chest to chest
as one with all the necessary twisting or spiral movements
made within the body, whether man or woman.But that
is not the only criterion, it's how it feels which is the
final decider and that's the intangible.

It is the opposite of "dancing in a block".
Maybe it is remarked upon because such a dance seems
to be disappearing but it is still a mark of recognition
of a good social tango dancer.

Oh, and a further point on the side.
Nationality doesn't seem to matter to portenos,
if you can dance you are a dancer, if you dance
chest to chest you can be a milonguero.
Speaking as a foreigner it often seems to be a welcome
surprise to them. It's only foreigners who seem to think
that only argentines dance so-called milonguero style.
 
To be a milonguero seems to be what happens if you are talented, dance tango a lot, never attend a tango lesson, enjoy fatty food with good wine at a party. So the milonguero's style will will inevitably differ a lot. ;)
And I think nowadays for most people the difference between "close embrace" and "miloguero style" is bare academic, the mark got diluted.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
To be a milonguero seems to be what happens if you are talented, dance tango a lot, never attend a tango lesson, enjoy fatty food with good wine at a party. So the milonguero's style will will inevitably differ a lot. ;)
I'll take that as a parody with a grain of truth
although by no means applicable to everyone.
And I think nowadays for most people the difference between "close embrace" and "miloguero style" is bare academic, the mark got diluted.
That may be the case because too many people,
essentially teachers, have used and abused and
even redefined the term for their own ends.

Its original meaning is already lost but I was
referring to how (some) social dancers apply
it in Buenos Aires. After all it is a BsAs term.

Finally, not attending tango lessons does not
mean no improvement or even no learning.
But the basics can be taught although the
self-development probably cannot.
Nothing can replace much practice.
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
...Its original meaning is already lost but I was
referring to how (some) social dancers apply
it in Buenos Aires. After all it is a BsAs term...
You are bravely fighting a loosing battle. Although the terms milonguero and milonguero style were coined in BsAs the porteños never adopted these labels. In history milonguero was an epithet for night-owls and the in-crowd, and milonguero style was synonymous with low dancing skills. Nowadays the porteños still avoid these terms. They merchandize and export their tango as "tango pista", or "villa urquiza". Furthermore, no exponent of the (today´s) milonguero style ever sat in the panel of judges or even won a championship. Let the word rest in peace, let it be kind of folklore.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
You are bravely fighting a loosing battle.
I'm not fighting any kind of battle, just reporting
from "the front".
Although the terms milonguero and milonguero style were coined in BsAs the porteños never adopted these labels. In history milonguero was an epithet for night-owls and the in-crowd, and milonguero style was synonymous with low dancing skills.
The "low dancing skills" was only the opinion of those
who thought their more "professional" (eye-catching and
crowd pleasing?) commercial style was better. It was
better only in that it earned them more money than the
tango salon of the time ever could. It was just opinion(s).
Nowadays the porteños still avoid these terms. They merchandize
and export their tango as "tango pista", or "villa urquiza".
Or more rudely called by some social dancers, "tango for export".
But the meanings of words (of any language) change
over time.

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone,
“it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean
so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty,
“which is to be master—that's all.”


Lewis Carroll (1832-98)

Furthermore, no exponent of the (today´s) milonguero style ever sat
in the panel of judges or even won a championship.
Let the word rest in peace, let it be kind of folklore.
The word is a natural Spanish derivation from Milonga,
it isn't going to be allowed to rest anytime soon.

Osvaldo Cartery won the championship (somehow),
in 2004 I think. The championship is irrelevant to real
social collaborative social dancing, it's very relevant
to commercial income-earning interests.

Oscar Casas, who has many links back to the apparently sleazy
milonguero days, today advertises teaching Neo Milonguero,
whatever that is, which will be whatever he is making it.
 
The "low dancing skills" was only the opinion of those
who thought their more "professional" (eye-catching and
crowd pleasing?) commercial style was better. It was
better only in that it earned them more money than the
tango salon of the time ever could. It was just opinion(s).
I think here "Milonguero" names someone who is quite well adapted to social dancing. Would someone like to persuade me that in the "Golden Age" there was such an academic and sophisticated approach to tango like nowadays? Posture diagrams on the wall explaining the importance of the rib cage for a proper posture? ;) Today's milongueros will just have well adapted to foreign expectations somehow.

And there will hopefully forever be young ones that challenge the old bulls - one attack wave after the other: on a technical, conditional, social or ethical level that settled persons can't easily follow. Or tango will be dead soon.
So for me there is no better or worse, just a yesterday and a tomorrow.
And sometime is goes cyclic - tomorrow looks like yesterday. :cool:
 
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Steve Pastor

Moderator
Staff member
John isn't fighting a battle, but I find myself at odds with people who think certain people are "good" because they look good and have done "well" in competitions.

Also, I really wonder if all if the current obsession with anatomy and technique, an
academic and sophisticated approach
isn't lost on most of us; even though I am somewhat guilty of going there, too.
 

vit

Active Member
Also, I really wonder if all if the current obsession with anatomy and technique, an isn't lost on most of us; even though I am somewhat guilty of going there, too.
It's the same like in science. First there were greek philosophers, then there was Newton, then Einstein and others. First theories were simple and easy to understand, just it turned out they can't explain everything, so people invented more complex ones. Problem is - more accurate it is, harder to understand and to use by most people

Just like everything else in our ordinary life - including dancing
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
It's the same like in science. First there were greek philosophers, then there was Newton, then Einstein and others. First theories were simple and easy to understand, just it turned out they can't explain everything, so people invented more complex ones. Problem is - more accurate it is, harder to understand and to use by most people

Just like everything else in our ordinary life - including dancing
No, none of that has nothing to with dancing, nor any perception
you may have of its (unnecessary) complication.
 

TomTango

Active Member
It's the same like in science. First there were greek philosophers, then there was Newton, then Einstein and others. First theories were simple and easy to understand, just it turned out they can't explain everything, so people invented more complex ones. Problem is - more accurate it is, harder to understand and to use by most people

Just like everything else in our ordinary life - including dancing
I like this! Just like people are still trying to discover a unified theory of tango.
 

sixela

Well-Known Member
It's the same like in science.
Let's take philosophy instead. First there were the Greek philosophers, and some time ago there was Lacan...if you ever watched a lecture from him from start to end, you'd see that more esoteric isn't always more relevant.

There's also the fact that some of the discourse on technique and certainly anatomy tends to be very prescriptive in a narrow way, and to assume that there's only one way to skin a cat.
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
John isn't fighting a battle, but I find myself at odds with people who think certain people are "good" because they look good and have done "well" in competitions.

Also, I really wonder if all if the current obsession with anatomy and technique, an isn't lost on most of us; even though I am somewhat guilty of going there, too.
IMO, good and bad are relative in most anything, and especially anything artsy, (which includes tango). I think people forget this, or maybe never even realized it. If you think someone is good (or bad), then it's true for you, but it might not be true for anyone else.

I don't think there's anything wrong with thinking someone is good because they look good and did well in competitions. It's takes a lot of skill (and practice) to achieve it. I can very much enjoy watching how good someone looks when dancing, (and the last thing I want to see at a performance, is a demonstration of "good" social dancing).

Now, unless I've danced with a performer, I can't say whether they would be a good teacher for me, as the feel / embrace / connection aspect of the dance is also important for me when dancing (not when watching, though).

BTW, despite some of the silly stereotyping that you see posted on here from time to time, some performers really do have a "wonderful" embrace, (as lots of them study many different styles of tango).
 
Beginning with tango I was surprised to see some eligible tangueros (seldom tangueras) dancing with a bad looking posture.
It took me some time to figure out, that this posture was a relict of "export tango", used by professional contemporary/modern dancers to gain flexibility to express best with her body, imitated by second level tango teachers, adopted by midfield tangueros that never had not much to express and many years of experience didn't change that.
But with that experience they can embrace and lead quite well, additionally the can look onto their feet to make things easy. :D

What I really want to say: people complaining about other peoples posture often target to the inner attitude of them. :cool:

BTW: I was by no way concerned about their health - the main risk is to sit an office chair and not to dance. :nurse:
 

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