The Booty Misconception

[JohnEm]

I'd like to mention that this discussion seems to be focused almost entirely on followers' bodies and how they use them. One wise soul upthread did mention that frequently the posture of the leader affects the follower's ability to maintain her axis and still connect, but for the most part, it has been a criticism of followers.

Probably because this thread was about women's posture, not men's.
I certainly wouldn't pretend that women are the only one's to blame,
but I do blame Noelia and her ilk for the disconnected dance which results.
She dances alone. Maja rather wildly dances alone, the men are props.
Is it the men's fault? Maybe as far as the fact that they are prepared
to dance in a manner with their partners so they can dance in such a way.

In my experience, followers are more likely than leaders to have proper posture early on, while leaders are far more likely to be hunching and looking at the floor. Some leaders continue to slouch and look down for years, maybe even permanently because it becomes a habit they can't break. Far too many beginner classes never emphasize looking out instead of down, and they often start people in a open embrace that allows slouching and looking at their feet. Frequently the followers in that social group have to adapt to be able to dance with the leaders or they will sit all night. Everyone goes to You-tube to figure out how to solve problems on their social dance floor even though nothing they find on You-tube is social dancing.

"Never look down" is one of the best advices you can receive in any dance.
And in tango - both partners always maintain forward intention (and that includes
even when going backwards, either partner). Yet many teachers don't do that,
they don't even look as if they know what it means because they don't hold
themselves nor move in such a way that they can.

Tango is a partner dance. BOTH partners play a part in how the connection and postures are formed. If they didn't, then no one would care about other people's posture and connection when they choose who to dance with.

Absolutely true.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Interesting article, the comments maybe even more so.
As for squatting, just how many know how important squatting
is for young development and actually ongoing health too?
The lack of squatting regularly in young life and its influence on
bone shaping when they are still soft may be deeply damaging to some.

Even when the bones are developing, there's a limit to how much you can alter the shape of the femoral neck and the socket for the head. One of the things that distinguishes good ballet teachers (for example) from every person who hangs up a shingle to teach dance to very young girls, is the knowledge of what helps shape the body in a healthy way and what does damage to a body too young for the positions and movements.

the foot does not roll from toe to heel
but the foot lands on as much of the ball of the foot as possible,
even when going backwards. High heels can be intrusive to this
but possibly even more destructive to walking forwards with
a maintained forward intention. Again it's individual.

Sadly for women (my own view) high heels are now prevalent
as a result of the marketing of pretty tango shoes s

On this we agree. While I don't think everyone dances better in totally FLAT shoes, I do think many women are wearing heels that are too high for the natural shape of their foot and the strength of the muscles that allow for rising up on demi-point or half-toe. (what non ballet dancers would call being on their toes).

My advise to followers (which often falls on deaf ears) is that :

1) Your shoe heels need to be low enough that you can raise them off the floor by rising up higher on your toes into a balanced position that you can hold un-aided for a MINIMUM of 30 seconds. Although you won't actually need to do this while dancing, it shows that you have the strength in the feet to be that high on your toes rather than relying on the shoe to hold you up. If someone is relying on the shoe, chances are there are postural things that will inevitably go wrong too.

2) You need to be able to walk forward in the shoes and still get your toes to the floor long before your weight is completely over the foot. Otherwise you are either teetering on the heel of the shoe trying to get your weight over your leg, or you are stepping forward with the knee very bent to put your toes down (which limits the length of your step and can interfere with what was led)

The tango shoe market has created a great deal of snobbery and leaders aren't exempt from this snobbery. I've even read posters here on DF saying that they judge unknown followers at festivals by their shoes. I've certainly seen IRL that leaders do so. Followers feel compelled to buy the shoes, not just because they like the look of them, but because they know that "looking the part" is important in the US. (can't speak to elsewhere)

I will say that I also don't think many followers dance their best in totally flat shoes. I know I don't. Most women have a position of the foot that feels natural and comfortable to dance. The range is from flat to very, very high heeled. For me the best height is about 7.0 - 7.5cm. Anything lower, and I end up dancing on my toes too much. Higher and I can't walk forward comfortably.

The standard (ie: most common) shoe heel these days for tango manufacturers is 8.0-8.5cm. They go as high as 10cm. I don't personally know any social dancers who dance well in a 10cm heel.

 

[Zoopsia59]

"Never look down" is one of the best advices you can receive in any dance.

There's an old joke about ballet dancers that if you even draw a line on the floor they will trip over it. It's not because they are looking down; it's because they have carried the lesson to never look down into every moment of their life. Consequently they are always tripping over stuff.

I always start beginners in tango in a slightly modified close embrace so that they can't get in the habit of looking down.

I've also been known to stand at the far end of the room in a lesson, jumping up and down and waving my arms, shouting to the leader: "LOOK AT ME!!!!" to get them to look where they are going instead of down.

Yeah... we have fun in my lessons!

 

[sixela]

She dances alone.

No she doesn't [since you seem to be argumenting by assertion...] But then, I think (once again) that the only person who could judge that is someone who's danced with her.

 

[Mladenac]

Here's someone with a good, "J" shaped spine:
And a more exaggerated "S" spine:

We also see that in second picture the guy is quite vertical (open embrace posture) and doesn't go into shared space.
And the follower is trying to compesate that by pushing her head forward.

 

[Mladenac]

It's very painful for your lumbar spine if stand that way and finish your step on a bent leg. (poor quality of motion)



However, when one extends the leg, it engages the glutes and prevents stress to the lumbar spine.

IMO The picture is bad in so many ways.

1. He is already on the step and she will be late
2. With an extended leg in social dancing there is a great chance that the next couple will be hit with a heel.
...

 

[ArbeeNYC]

But it isn't just about the Butt it's about all the posture.
Your audio link and the associated website says it all much more accurately
than you do. In fact it seems to me you are trying to defend the indefensible.

[...]

Not all that much different. Noelia (it is Noelia?) is a good example
of a non-aligned, posturally bad body. There are so many things unnatural
about her dance that I would have no interest in dancing with her.

Personally, I'm a big fan of Noelia & Carlitos, but I'm not a posture expert. However, to add to your examples of exaggerated posture, I'd add Virginia Pandolfi. Saw her at a local exhibition not too long ago and was stunned at the way she used her backside. It was like a runaway locomotive. The whole thing seemed false to me. Very interesting thread.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Thanks (not!) for answering for me, but no X-ray vision needed.
It's personal experience actually.

[...]

On a more constructive note, in fact I found that
attempts to target and engage the stomach muscles
as a singular objective for the dance was doomed
to failure even though I had strong stomach muscles.
Targeting the pelvic control muscles was much better
and although it took time to exercise and make the control
permanent the result was naturally engaged stomach muscles
and a neutrally positioned pelvis. I believe that is what
we should aim for in normal life and in tango (all dance
in fact). It should then be possible to easily and almost
naturally rotate the pelvis for dissociation - some people
can do this without any education or thinking at all.

I was wondering if you could provide examples or a link to the exercises you describe. I do (and have done) sit ups, yoga, and a couple of pilates exercises (mostly planks) to strengthen core muscles. But I'm always interested in improvement. My problems are mostly my shoulder (rotator cuff or tendonitis) and an occasionally wonky ankle.

 

[JohnEm]

Personally, I'm a big fan of Noelia & Carlitos, but I'm not a posture expert. However, to add to your examples of exaggerated posture, I'd add Virginia Pandolfi. Saw her at a local exhibition not too long ago and was stunned at the way she used her backside. It was like a runaway locomotive. The whole thing seemed false to me. Very interesting thread.

Whilst trying to avoid a long critique of Noelia,
she is not a centered dancer and like others of her ilk,
much of the extrovert stuff that she does, she does alone.
In their embrace her body is broken at the waist
and her sensitivity is restricted, her sensual communication
with Carlitos is minimised even despite the outward show.

Virginia Pandolfi has been mentioned earlier and I agree!
She is an even more exaggerated example.

I was wondering if you could provide examples or a link to the exercises you describe. I do (and have done) sit ups, yoga, and a couple of pilates exercises (mostly planks) to strengthen core muscles. But I'm always interested in improvement. My problems are mostly my shoulder (rotator cuff or tendonitis) and an occasionally wonky ankle.

There are plenty of ways to investigate and experiment with
improvement and you are the best person to do that. It's your
body and the development you experience will encourage you.

I too have had a bad ankle for years, now it's stronger and more
reliable than the other. Other than exercise I have no explanation
for that. Pilates certainly has its place although seemingly Joe Pilates
himself did not refer to the pelvic floor, that has been added more
recently based on improved knowledge of the human body and
how it works. I am less convinced about Yoga and about stretches
which can be all too readily overdone especially if done cold.

My dance is one of the engagement of the senses and milongueros
often describe their tango dance simply as a feeling. Well there
are many feelings and senses involved and they are difficult to describe.
An Alexander Principle author describes what she calls the sixth sense
which is not ESP but bodily sensation. From that perhaps we should
rename ESP to ISP - Internal Sensory Perception. I often say that
in order to dance the dance of the senses first we have to be able
to sense ourselves.
So I recommend Missy Vineyard's book for interest:
How-You-Stand-Move-Live

and about the importance of the pelvic floor:
Eric Franklin's Pelvic-Power-Exercises-Strength-Flexibility
or his more recent work about The Psoas Muscle.

I am rather less convinced about Eric Franklin's belief in touch
as a sort of self-therapy other than maybe as a method of identifying
which muscle to control. But you are not me, your senses are not
my senses and clearly from Missy Vineyards book, we all can be very
different. I cannot readily identify with her patients for example since
I have never been in their extreme state and I solve my own problems.
We have to find our own way. Maybe that's why I also don't connect
with Eric Franklin's imagery process because I can sense directly already.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Thanks for the recommendations. I'll have a look.

 

[Tagontarian]

After reading all of this thread, I registered only so that I could post a response.

I fully agree with JohnEm point of view. I don't know any of you but reading your posts I think it is fair to assume most of you are long time AT dancers. I have a few points to make

- yes both men and women can have bad postures. IMHO most dancers at Milongas have a bad postures. It is evident.

- Unless the partner is pushing or pulling, the partner can not be blamed for one's posture. Maintaining one's posture and axis is our own responsibility.

- Someone being professional dancers (especially in the AT world) doesn't mean they are experts in what is a good posture for preventing injuries. Injuries due to bad posture can take years to manifest.

- In my personal opinion use of incorrect posture because it makes the dance feel comfortable is not a valid argument.

I read a couple of comments about how man's posture wouldn't allow a follower to lean in for chest to chest connection. I think that only applies if you dance Apilado style. I am not a student of Tango History. I am trying to study it now. From my limited understanding Apilado style originated out of show Tango and became prevalent during mid nineties. I tried to google its origin and only the very first link credits Carlos Gavitos for crafting it. I can't trust the rest of the links where Apilado style is equated with Milonguero style. From my limited understanding neither the Salon embrace nor Milonguero style require partners to lean into each other in close embrace. I don't consider a leader's posture of standing straight centered on the axis with weight on ball of feet as a lean. Therefore only reason I can think of a follower wanting to lean into an embrace is if you dance Apilado style and "chest connection" implies chest lead. The dance can be certainly danced in the close embrace with out either leaning into the other in both salon style and milonguero style (both are responsible for their own axis).

I gave up Apilado style for precisely the posture reasons. I also prefer the salon style lead where the chest lead is not emphasized. Both choices made logical sense to me because the my primary reason was injury prevention in the longer run. That doesn't mean there aren't followers who will cling to me or push their weight on to me or try to support themselves by holding on to me (all bad technique that no lead would like no matter the style)

Any physical activity whether it is running, swimming, biking, etc requires good posture. Tango is no different.

 

[newbie]

my limited understanding

This.
Not that it removes anything to the value of what you say about posture, pathology and all. But tango history, styles... Yunno, we all here actually attended classes by Gavito, he's not someone whom we know only via Google and Youtube.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

After reading all of this thread, I registered only so that I could post a response.

From my limited understanding Apilado style originated out of show Tango and became prevalent during mid nineties. I tried to google its origin and only the very first link credits Carlos Gavitos for crafting it. I can't trust the rest of the links where Apilado style is equated with Milonguero style. From my limited understanding neither the Salon embrace nor Milonguero style require partners to lean into each other in close embrace. I don't consider a leader's posture of standing straight centered on the axis with weight on ball of feet as a lean. Therefore only reason I can think of a follower wanting to lean into an embrace is if you dance Apilado style and "chest connection" implies chest lead. The dance can be certainly danced in the close embrace with out either leaning into the other in both salon style and milonguero style (both are responsible for their own axis).

Gavito is not the origin of dancing "apilado," he simply exemplifies its most extreme manifestation. It's not all that uncommon, in a less extreme form, in what you refer to as "milonguero" style, where it is used to create space between the partners' midsections. If you stand on the balls of your feet and project your chest, I would consider that a slight lean since you're obviously somewhat forward. I don't see any one posture as being more prone to injury than any other providing you are well balanced and in control of your movements.

 

[Tagontarian]

This.
Not that it removes anything to the value of what you say about posture, pathology and all. But tango history, styles... Yunno, we all here actually attended classes by Gavito, he's not someone whom we know only via Google and Youtube.

I am not sure what is the point you are trying to make

Tango has a very rich history and not an easy one to untangle.

 

[Tagontarian]

Gavito is not the origin of dancing "apilado," he simply exemplifies its most extreme manifestation.

As I suspected. Sometimes a style already exists and then someone comes along to help amplify it. I used the word amplify rather than popularize, because it may be either by design or not.

It's not all that uncommon, in a less extreme form, in what you refer to as "milonguero" style, where it is used to create space between the partners' midsections. If you stand on the balls of your feet and project your chest, I would consider that a slight lean since you're obviously somewhat forward. I don't see any one posture as being more prone to injury than any other providing you are well balanced and in control of your movements.

Agree with you. Fortunately most who do prefer to dance using chest connection use the less extreme form. Posture may be defined generically but its execution is person specific. There in lies the rub. Based on my personal experience, I come across frequent bad postures when out dancing. I attribute quite a bit of it to the dancers trying to get to that chest connection at expense of balance and control.