opendoor
Forum Master
I once attended a workshop with Graciela. It was worth it for the anecdotes. Dancing with her is terrible. She only responds to extremely energetic arm lead. The next day, my neck and shoulders were completely tense and sore.
The Booty Misconception
- Thread starter TomTango
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enrosskay
Member
There's a style of tango that I quite dislike, I will attempt to describe it.
Both leader and follower are tilted towards each other, usually the follower more than the leader. they are in close embrace. One feels that if the leader disappeared in a puff of air, the follower would fall down (not that this is problematic per se). But they are not tilted in the way that followers with apelido (?) are tilted, eg Gavito's followers, but moreso they are draped over one another. It is sometimes as if she fell asleep on him. She is not straight or stacked. Her hand might be quite high on him but I'm not certain. There is a certain amount of butt visible on both sides. There seems to be a lot of pivoting and the steps taken by both are very small, which means that the follower's hips seem to be 90% of the dance, all led by subtle movements of the leader's arm around her back. There are no clean lines. Steps seem to be taken in line with the follower, as opposed to slightly outside her (my preference).
Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Or can illustrate with a vid found online? To be clear, I don't think it's bad, just that I don't like it.
Both leader and follower are tilted towards each other, usually the follower more than the leader. they are in close embrace. One feels that if the leader disappeared in a puff of air, the follower would fall down (not that this is problematic per se). But they are not tilted in the way that followers with apelido (?) are tilted, eg Gavito's followers, but moreso they are draped over one another. It is sometimes as if she fell asleep on him. She is not straight or stacked. Her hand might be quite high on him but I'm not certain. There is a certain amount of butt visible on both sides. There seems to be a lot of pivoting and the steps taken by both are very small, which means that the follower's hips seem to be 90% of the dance, all led by subtle movements of the leader's arm around her back. There are no clean lines. Steps seem to be taken in line with the follower, as opposed to slightly outside her (my preference).
Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Or can illustrate with a vid found online? To be clear, I don't think it's bad, just that I don't like it.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Of course. It's the conventional traditional milonguero form of tango. Although the leader shouldn't stick his butt out. The follower should be slightly off axis. Leader's right arm is there for support primarily. It's a very comfortable way to dance once you learn how.
Yes, we do.
If you want a frame of reference take a look at the dancing at Lo de Ciela milonga in Buenos Aires. Also look at the few videos of Cacho Dante where you can check out his posture. Cacho was the quintessential milonguero. Compare Cacho with some of the old guys with heads hanging forward that are also from Buenos Aires.
I don't think the bad posture guys represent traditional milonguero form. But I just looked at a video the other day and the guy teaching thought the bad posture guys WERE representative. They DO however represent the bad kind of the traditional milonguero form.
Christine Denniston wrote rather extensively about dancing during the Golden Age and according to her the hanging head and woman hanging on the man were not the norm.
Again, take a look at what Cacho did.
The follower falling down? Partners exert an equal force horizontally towards each other. The woman has to bring herself farther forward to exert the same horizontal force. So we see her" leaning on" the usually taller and heavier man when they are actually leaning on each other. If SHE would disappear, he would maybe not fall over, but would have to compensate somehow. And, yeah, it's not pleasant to have someone constantly exerting a downward force on you when you are dancing. Bad form.
Out of time here where I am, but there's quite a bit more I could say about your observations.
enrosskay
Member
Yes, admittedly it does look comfortable. But it also looks like a totally different dance to what I learned and it explains why, when I went to a different tango school, I was confused by them asking me to step in-line, rather than slightly outside the follower. Just thinking out loud here.
enrosskay
Member
I realise now that my description was of a very obvious distinction which I somehow hadn't grasped: that of the difference between tango salon and milonguero.
However, i don't know what you mean about the hanging head, can you explain? Is it the leader's head which hangs? Is it regarded as bad posture? Will I see it in the Cacho/Lo de Ciela milonga videos?
opendoor
Forum Master
Sorry for being late: It reminded me at once of Canyengue, enrosskay. It is the appropriate style to danced to Guardia vieja music of the 20s and early 30s. It is older than Milonguero and Tango de Salón. Canyengue with figures also is called Orillero style.
( But following your description, it could also be a very poor embodiment of milonguero style ).
The differences are:
-Canyengue is danced in a >frame, while Milonguero in parallel.
-Canyengue stylists avoid crosses as they were not invented back then.
-They bend their knees.
-Canyengue stylists accentuate the rick-tic-tic rhythm of the dos-por-cuatro signature.
-Canyengue stylists not only have their hand quite high, they also regularly drop them to hip height.
My canyengue teachers 20 years ago.
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enrosskay
Member
I looked that one up and I see the parallels but, in hinsight, I think it was just milonguero style. I described it a little uncharitably; it wasn't bad dancing, just not at all to my taste. Maybe because the ochos were reduced to such small steps that the hips did 90% of the movement, at some level it reminded me of bachata. There was romance in the closeness of the embrace but to me, there was no drama or tension in it. Maybe I am some kind of odd purist, although to say purist suggests I believe that the salon/urquiza style are the purest — I don't believe that, only that I like that style the most.
opendoor
Forum Master
That also is a trait of canyengue. (add it to my list, above).
The problem is that not everyone has the ambition to dance in a style-pure manner. Not everyone can or is willing to adapt their dance style to the music style. Ultimately, this results in an individual mishmash. Finally it would be interesting if you could share a vid of the couple in question!
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enrosskay
Member
I have no video. They are not famous or well-known dancers. They were both intermediate dancers I happened to see at a class. In fact, they had never danced together before.
After a quick check on youtube, this is a rough idea of the spirit and form of the dance
Albeit in the case that I saw, she was draped over him more, not in a stacked way. To be fair, this was also partially because they were a similar height, and maybe the lady was even taller in heels. But it was a similar style with very small steps and a lot of hip action on the follower's part.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
The problem could be where you were learning. The basic abrazo and walk are fundamental to Argentine tango.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
This is much better: The video shown here is authentic:
Milonguero X
Among the many low-resolution videos once hosted on the blog Tango and Chaos in Buenos Aires (1) there is one of an unidentified couple. The video is filmed in such a way that the dancers’ bodies a…
tango-high-and-low.com
Imagine that you are standing straight and tall. Now look down at your belt buckle (or cell phone!). Rather than being in line above your feet, pelvis and shoulders, you let your head go forward.
Women sometimes "drape" themselves over their partner because they not only have their arm over the man's shoulder and behind the head, but allow more than a minimum of weight to be on that arm and their partner.
"There is a certain amount of butt visible on both sides."
The "forward lean" can/should come from the ankles and/or the knees. If it comes from the pelvis, the booty can be more noticeable.
This style comes from the center of Buenos Aires where milongas were crowded. Cacho Dante went their to dance because in the other parts of the city in his day mothers accompanied their daughters to milongas to keep an eye on them. With limited space and respect for other couples big flashy moves were not welcome.
"Clean lines" and how things looked to observers was unimportant.
What is important is the connection between the partners.
Dennis and Tyree aren't doing much with the music. Maybe I'll just leave it at that.
Look at how much they do with the music while using limited space.
Also note that the other couples probably aren't thinking gotta stay away from them so we don't get kicked.
PS I hope you take the time to read the text that goes along with ArbeeNYC's post to understand why some of us prefer this style. But, yeah, for me it was like learning a new dance after a year of that other stuff (with tongue in cheek!)
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enrosskay
Member
But is the walk 'supposed' to be in-line or outside the follower? I guess it depends on the step. But imagine from the embrace the leader just goes straight ahead
Until Steve pointed it out, the nuances here did escape me.
The leader here is clearly a very accomplished dancer. My musicality improved just by watching him there.
To me, the milonguero style looks like a dance which would feel very nice to dance, and I enjoy watching it when executed so well like that. It still doesn't give me the rush of emotion that I would get watching Osvaldo Zotto and Lorena Ermocida – I prefer more 'active' leaders and more dramatic moments. It's a taste thing I guess. But then I also don't like tango escenario, or the work of Zotto's brother Miguel, which I find too showy — there is no suspension before the denouement.