"The Dinzel System"?

[JohnEm]

Yes.


Yes - assuming that's what this system entails. But I'd still like to hear from someone who's experienced the system?

I have no experience of the so-called system and I don't think the word system has any place in Tango.

But perhaps, and only perhaps, the teacher I have in mind has learned the Vin Diesel System (oops Dinzel I meant). Especially as he uses the same dreaded pedagogical words and he certainly is teaching a positive intervention (oh I meant active contribution of course) by the lady.

I'd be interested to hear from someone else too and also how it is the Dinzels know how tango was danced in this way in 1850 which almost certainly predates the embrace, upright posture, apilado etc. Is it just yet another teacher's version of tango adding even more confusion?

Just keep dancing - it's your tango, not theirs.

 

[Gssh]

"interested in" <> "agree with" or even "like the concept"...

From what I know, the whole "danced by two equally active dancers" concept doesn't really work. It's a lead-follow dance, not a lead-lead dance. However, if someone can explain how this works, or if someone has experience of this, I'm prepared to have an open mind on the topic..

Not sure if this is what they are talking about (actually i am pretty sure they are not), but i have some experience with what i would call "two equally active dancers" -for me it only happens with very few followers, and only in close embrace, but what happens is that the "leader" asks for a move, and the "follower" then leads it. The archetypical experience is the close embrace giro where the follower powers and controls the whole move, and then you just keep this kind of "the follower moves the couple and the leader feels that energy and does stuff with it" thing up. I like it when it happens, but it requires very precise leading, and the leader having a direct feeling of were her feet exactly are, and how much weight she has on them, and how she hears the music and what timing her next step is going to be on.

Gssh

 

[JohnEm]

Not sure if this is what they are talking about (actually i am pretty sure they are not), but i have some experience with what i would call "two equally active dancers" -for me it only happens with very few followers, and only in close embrace, but what happens is that the "leader" asks for a move, and the "follower" then leads it. The archetypical experience is the close embrace giro where the follower powers and controls the whole move, and then you just keep this kind of "the follower moves the couple and the leader feels that energy and does stuff with it" thing up. I like it when it happens, but it requires very precise leading, and the leader having a direct feeling of were her feet exactly are, and how much weight she has on them, and how she hears the music and what timing her next step is going to be on.

Gssh

That's a really interesting observation and I can certainly envisage how that can work within a partnership that's really in tune. And it needs a lady who really commits to the movement of the turn.
Not sure whether that's part of it but it would be good to find out.

So far it's not my experience of an active participation of the lady.

 

[tangonuevo]

I think that leaders rejecting a follower's efforts to dance actively, even as actively as the lead, is an unfortunate consequence of a high control, macho, element present in some aspects of tango. Or perhaps the result of a beginning leader who just doesn't yet get it.

The average follower certainly understands the music as well as the average lead, and certainly has as much to contribute to the couple as the lead. And I do not mean just in the form of minor adornments. It is not only possible, but spectacularly enjoyable, to dance interactively even though it is indeed a lead-follow dance. The old saw is: The lead proposes, the follow disposes. I.e., she goes where she will with la marca.

 

[opendoor]

Re: Dinzel System

Anyone heard of this?

Hi Dave, never read their book, nor seen there CDs. But the teachers of our teachers (i.e the first generation of tango teachers in Europe) were influence a great deal by the Dinzels. What I got to know: in my eyes it is a traditional and old fashioned teaching method. In argentine eyes this might have been a revolution, bc. they worked and felt as real teachers in our sense, focussing on the studends. The elements itself are close to Pugliese system (counting of the steps a.s.o.).

Here´s an interview http://tangopulse.net/index_l.htm

 

[Dave Bailey]

Especially as he uses the same dreaded pedagogical words

Yeah... Why would any sane person use the word "pedagogical"? Especially in relation to teaching adults? What's wrong with "teaching"? Or "training"? Or "learning"?

I'd be interested to hear from someone else too and also how it is the Dinzels know how tango was danced in this way in 1850

Time machine?

To be honest, I didn't know there was tango in 1850. I'm clearly an ignorant person.

 

[AndaBien]

Yeah... Why would any sane person use the word "pedagogical"? Especially in relation to teaching adults? What's wrong with "teaching"? Or "training"? Or "learning"?...

I've heard other Argentines use the word. It might be that it has more common usage in their language than it does in ours.

 

[JohnEm]

Yeah... Why would any sane person use the word "pedagogical"? Especially in relation to teaching adults? What's wrong with "teaching"? Or "training"? Or "learning"?

Shush, not too loud. If they hear us dismissing pedagogy for adult teaching they might start using andragogy/andragogical instead. Though at least I've never seen mention of an Andragogue.

To be honest, I didn't know there was tango in 1850. I'm clearly an ignorant person.

There was a sort of Tango (apparently) but it wasn't tango as we know it.

And Tango in the early 20th century wasn't as we know it either.

 

[Lui]

Here in Germany “pedagogic” has god an extended meaning. Despite it’s Greek roots, it is used in the sense of „based on a thorough, good working teaching system“. Recalling some adult classes – not tango of course – maybe it’s roots are not so wrong after all. You know: You can be young only once, but immature all ways .

I haven’t meet the Dinzels, but many German tango teachers sport them on their CV. Despite that, I heard next to nothing of their system. I assume, therefore, it can’t be that different from the stuff everybody else teaches or it would show a greater impact.

While it is possible in my opinion, to change the lead completely - the Hermanos Macana seem to be experts at that – I see it as a distinctive feature of tango, that the leader leads, and the follower follows. This does not exclude the possibility for the follower to express her musicality and shape the dance. In my eyes the leader lays the foundation and the follower furnishes the Bell Etage. If a lead is clear and careful, it’s natural for the follower to go down that path. While following these steps she can pronounce, embellish and even change them within the pattern giving. This way translating music into her individual shaped movement.

Here are The Macanas in action. Watch out the exchange is very smooth!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-mkR-KoPts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrZncChzHK4

About that old Tango style. Maybe there is some carefully remembered lore, passed down from generation to generation. Who knows?

 

[Peaches]

I suppose it's important to do it while you're alive . . . . .

It's a bit of a bugger to work on boleos once dead...one good one and you're apt to lose a leg. Totally screws with floorcraft...makes everyone unhappy.

 

[dchester]

It's a bit of a bugger to work on boleos once dead...one good one and you're apt to lose a leg. Totally screws with floorcraft...makes everyone unhappy.

You nailed that one, dead on.

 

[Dave Bailey]

I haven’t meet the Dinzels, but many German tango teachers sport them on their CV.

At this point I feel I must refer you to my CV...

 

[opendoor]

Re(^2): Dinzel

I have to eat my words again then after talking to someone who learned from the Dinzels. Their method does not resemble the basic structure of the Pugliese system: in contrary it is seen as opposed to it. The Puglieses (as Naveira and Salas do) try to reduce the diversity (by counting steps, basics, 8-count molinete a.s.o.) . The Dinzel method tries to expand and viszalise all the movements, adornos, stylings of tango. Two big charts similar to oversized concept maps, or the underground map of London are hanging on the wall of their studio, one for leaders, one for followers.. And blow by blow every possibility and opportunity of TA is supposed to be in it there.

Any comments on their interview by the way?

 

[Dave Bailey]

I have to eat my words again then after talking to someone who learned from the Dinzels. Their method does not resemble the basic structure of the Pugliese system: in contrary it is seen as opposed to it. The Puglieses (as Naveira and Salas do) try to reduce the diversity (by counting steps, basics, 8-count molinete a.s.o.) . The Dinzel method tries to expand and viszalise all the movements, adornos, stylings of tango. Two big charts similar to oversized concept maps, or the underground map of London are hanging on the wall of their studio, one for leaders, one for followers.. And blow by blow every possibility and opportunity of TA is supposed to be in it there.

OK, so basically it sounds like it's a "big list of steps" approach - which makes sense given that some of the other links are to a notation system they've apparently developed (you don't need a notation system if you're only teaching 4 steps )

But, I still don't know where this "active partner thing" comes from? And what it means? (And yes, of course I understand what "active following" means, but they aren't talking about that)

Any comments on their interview by the way?

Hmmm.... from that article:

Q: the Dinzel method?....

Rodolfo:....is a pedagogical organization of all the elements of Tango.

Well, it's not what you'd call a detailed explanation is it?

 

[opendoor]

Dinzel system - may be a licence for the dancefloor

Found, that Dinzels are still rather popular in the queer tango scene. Pure chance? There must be something special in in their system for european or north american leaders.

For argentine dancers counts: there is no need for equal rights in tango dancing, for argentine leaders usually hang up their machismo for that moment, and try to develope, and present the woman on the dancefloor, whereas european men start leading like driving a car. So it makes sense to tell women/followers their opportunities and areas.