"The Dinzel System"?

#21
Especially as he uses the same dreaded pedagogical words
Yeah... Why would any sane person use the word "pedagogical"? Especially in relation to teaching adults? What's wrong with "teaching"? Or "training"? Or "learning"?

I'd be interested to hear from someone else too and also how it is the Dinzels know how tango was danced in this way in 1850
Time machine?

To be honest, I didn't know there was tango in 1850. I'm clearly an ignorant person. :(
 

AndaBien

Well-Known Member
#22
Yeah... Why would any sane person use the word "pedagogical"? Especially in relation to teaching adults? What's wrong with "teaching"? Or "training"? Or "learning"?...
I've heard other Argentines use the word. It might be that it has more common usage in their language than it does in ours.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
#23
Yeah... Why would any sane person use the word "pedagogical"? Especially in relation to teaching adults? What's wrong with "teaching"? Or "training"? Or "learning"?
Shush, not too loud. If they hear us dismissing pedagogy for adult teaching they might start using andragogy/andragogical instead. Though at least I've never seen mention of an Andragogue.


To be honest, I didn't know there was tango in 1850. I'm clearly an ignorant person. :(
There was a sort of Tango (apparently) but it wasn't tango as we know it.

And Tango in the early 20th century wasn't as we know it either.
 

Lui

Active Member
#24
Here in Germany “pedagogic” has god an extended meaning. Despite it’s Greek roots, it is used in the sense of „based on a thorough, good working teaching system“. Recalling some adult classes – not tango of course – maybe it’s roots are not so wrong after all. You know: You can be young only once, but immature all ways ;).

I haven’t meet the Dinzels, but many German tango teachers sport them on their CV. Despite that, I heard next to nothing of their system. I assume, therefore, it can’t be that different from the stuff everybody else teaches or it would show a greater impact.

While it is possible in my opinion, to change the lead completely - the Hermanos Macana seem to be experts at that – I see it as a distinctive feature of tango, that the leader leads, and the follower follows. This does not exclude the possibility for the follower to express her musicality and shape the dance. In my eyes the leader lays the foundation and the follower furnishes the Bell Etage. If a lead is clear and careful, it’s natural for the follower to go down that path. While following these steps she can pronounce, embellish and even change them within the pattern giving. This way translating music into her individual shaped movement.

Here are The Macanas in action. Watch out the exchange is very smooth!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-mkR-KoPts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrZncChzHK4

About that old Tango style. Maybe there is some carefully remembered lore, passed down from generation to generation. Who knows?
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
#28
Re(^2): Dinzel

I have to eat my words again then after talking to someone who learned from the Dinzels. Their method does not resemble the basic structure of the Pugliese system: in contrary it is seen as opposed to it. The Puglieses (as Naveira and Salas do) try to reduce the diversity (by counting steps, basics, 8-count molinete a.s.o.) . The Dinzel method tries to expand and viszalise all the movements, adornos, stylings of tango. Two big charts similar to oversized concept maps, or the underground map of London are hanging on the wall of their studio, one for leaders, one for followers.. And blow by blow every possibility and opportunity of TA is supposed to be in it there.

Any comments on their interview by the way?
 
#29
I have to eat my words again then after talking to someone who learned from the Dinzels. Their method does not resemble the basic structure of the Pugliese system: in contrary it is seen as opposed to it. The Puglieses (as Naveira and Salas do) try to reduce the diversity (by counting steps, basics, 8-count molinete a.s.o.) . The Dinzel method tries to expand and viszalise all the movements, adornos, stylings of tango. Two big charts similar to oversized concept maps, or the underground map of London are hanging on the wall of their studio, one for leaders, one for followers.. And blow by blow every possibility and opportunity of TA is supposed to be in it there.
OK, so basically it sounds like it's a "big list of steps" approach - which makes sense given that some of the other links are to a notation system they've apparently developed (you don't need a notation system if you're only teaching 4 steps :) )

But, I still don't know where this "active partner thing" comes from? And what it means? (And yes, of course I understand what "active following" means, but they aren't talking about that)

Hmmm.... from that article:

Q: the Dinzel method?....

Rodolfo:....is a pedagogical organization of all the elements of Tango.
Well, it's not what you'd call a detailed explanation is it?
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
#30
Dinzel system - may be a licence for the dancefloor

Found, that Dinzels are still rather popular in the queer tango scene. Pure chance? There must be something special in in their system for european or north american leaders.

For argentine dancers counts: there is no need for equal rights in tango dancing, for argentine leaders usually hang up their machismo for that moment, and try to develope, and present the woman on the dancefloor, whereas european men start leading like driving a car. So it makes sense to tell women/followers their opportunities and areas.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
#31
OK, so basically it sounds like it's a "big list of steps" approach - which makes sense given that some of the other links are to a notation system they've apparently developed (you don't need a notation system if you're only teaching 4 steps :) )

But, I still don't know where this "active partner thing" comes from? And what it means? (And yes, of course I understand what "active following" means, but they aren't talking about that)


Hmmm.... from that article:


Well, it's not what you'd call a detailed explanation is it?
Indeed.

This is what I find more troubling:


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Q: Where do you teach now? [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Rodolfo:At the University of Tango. Gloria is the Artistic Director and I direct the curriculum with the Dinzel method at Agrelo 3231. We have 900 students full time and 900 part time. The students receive a certificate as a teacher of Tango and one of our goals is that Tango be taught in all the schools in Buenos Aires. I am currently working on an agreement with the Ministry of Education to have Tango in all the public schools as part of the curriculum .... then the private schools will follow.[/FONT]

Having watched some video (YouTube again) theirs is not a style I'd subscribe to. And the thought of 1800 pupils all being taught that way is a bit troubling. I suppose their justification and purpose is the laudable one of introducing as many young people as possible to Tango.

At first sight they do seem to be at the flashily decorated, move/step based end of Tango. Perhaps Jantango might chip in and enlighten as to how they actually do fit into the Buenos Aires tango scene. It's impossible to tell from here.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#32
Found, that Dinzels are still rather popular in the queer tango scene. Pure chance? There must be something special in in their system for european or north american leaders.

For argentine dancers counts: there is no need for equal rights in tango dancing, for argentine leaders usually hang up their machismo for that moment, and try to develope, and present the woman on the dancefloor, whereas european men start leading like driving a car. So it makes sense to tell women/followers their opportunities and areas.
driving a car!!!?? rubbish the woman is a surrogate air guitar!
 

newbie

Well-Known Member
#33
So, Dinzel's way is 1850's tango...
From what I found in a book published in BsAs long ago (before the tango rebirth of the 1980s), there has been a time in tango (pre)history where the dance was between men, and not as a substitute or training for dancing with a woman, and not either as a mock knife duel, nor queer tango. Just a game to show what they can do with their feet. Something more like what the Macana brothers are doing.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
#34
To be honest, I didn't know there was tango in 1850. I'm clearly an ignorant person. :(
There was a sort of Tango (apparently) but it wasn't tango as we know it.

And Tango in the early 20th century wasn't as we know it either.
To briefly follow up on these posts.

The latest Tango Voice post is coincidentally about the history of Tango, especially in the 19th century. From that description Candombe was the dance with the evolving Milonga being influenced by it.

It's vague (well silent) about the history of Canyenge prior to its recognised appearance in the outskirts of BsAs around the turn of the 20th century and I've no idea who is writing Tango Voice and its authority although it quotes references.

Assuming TangoVoice is right perhaps the Dinzels meant the 1950s tango is what they teach not 1850s. It would make more sense to be teaching tango of the Golden Age though such a fundamental mistake on their website (if it's a mistake) somewhat knocks their credibility.

Teaching steps and moves doesn't sound like tango of the Golden Age. Nor did Tango of this era seem to have accommodated the active participation of the lady in the way they apparently espouse. Perhaps that's their own modification.

Some more light is needed!
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
#35
...in tango (pre)history where the dance was between men, and not as a substitute or training for dancing with a woman...
I´ve heard that before, but I think it´s a legend started by travellers. Approximately 2/3 of an iceberg isn´t seen. So what the travellers did see, were some peaks above the water line. In an rather catholic country it was almost impossible that single men and women would dance or touch each other in the public.
 

newbie

Well-Known Member
#38
I´ve heard that before, but I think it´s a legend started by travellers.
Absurdamente, es una pareja de varones la primera que se aviene a bailar el tango, en alguna esquina. El tango parecia solamente cosa de hombres. Indignaria atribuir al acto el mas minimo contenido homosexual. Se trata de una demostracion de habilidad, de un lucimiento.

Leon Benaros, la historia del tango, BsAs 1977
 

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