The essence of Tango Argentino

[AndaBien]

This has been taken totally out of context. The context was a dance discussion forum. I.E., If you were an artist and were trying to achieve something and were criticized for the way you were doing it...and subsequently you could see the art work of the person doing the criticizing...you would then know if you wanted to hear more or not. = What is so difficult to accept about this? It is common sense .. Isn't it? Or is there some political thing that I'm missing?

It depends. If it is factual criticism, what difference does it make who it comes from? If it is opinionated criticism, you probably need to know something about who it is coming from before you decide what it's worth.

 

[Dave]

It depends. If it is factual criticism, what difference does it make who it comes from?

Well, if someone says "it is easy to do X, as long as you make sure you much easier to start your lead with Y", it makes quite a difference if you see a video of them and whenever they do X it looks a complete mess.

I've had exactly this experience on another forum, and even if you've "known" that what they're saying doesn't make sense, you're always left thinking "well, maybe I just don't do Y properly". Once you see the video, that nagging doubt goes away.

On the other hand, although it's often tempting to say "Post video or shut up", I think doing so is completely unacceptable on a public dance forum. But boy do I understand the temptation sometimes.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Yes, You almost got it. What I'm saying is that if someone is criticizing your understanding of the dance and then you see that he/she dances like a robot with no sense of grace, well then you can discount some or all of their critique. Is that unreasonable?

It is unreasonable... someone can be better at explaining something than they are at demonstrating it. Someone can have a firm understanding of what the proper technique is even when they can't always physically achieve it at a milonga. Someone can be a great dancer in the past, and be now struggling with physical limitations. If Pupy Castello was confined to a wheelchair, would you consider his opinion invalid because he can no longer show you how to dance?

Many (if not most) of the great Figure skating coaches can no longer perform at the level their students do. Many NEVER skated at that level. The coach who created an amazing team for China never won a world medal, not even a bronze. Not once. Neither Dick Button nor Peggy Fleming (the two most frequent analysts) skated anywhere at the technical level of today's skaters. Would you need Einstein to teach you basic math?

I KNOW I make some of the same mistakes I correct in a student. In fact, because I struggle with the same issue, I may be MORE likely to see it in another. I'm certainly more empathetic about how hard it is to get it right! And the fact that I've received correction on it from a variety of teachers means I have more ideas to offer the student on how to fix it. I think the things I do effortlessly are harder to work on with a student, because I may not know HOW I do it.

Demonstrating is not the only way to teach, and consistent ability to perform perfectly on the dance floor is not required in order to recognize mistakes and what is needed in principle to correct them. Consistently applying the principle is a different skill.

 

[Mario7]

It is unreasonable... If Pupy Castello was confined to a wheelchair, would you consider his opinion invalid because he can no longer show you how to dance?

C'mon already, this is ridiculous. My original post was clear and let me put it to you again as an artist. There is a prestigious portrait forum which has each painter post a sample of their work so that others can consider the source of any criticism that they write. Is that unreasonable? Wouldn't Mr. Castello have a video or two laying around of his dance before being confined to a wheel chair?
Pleeeze, let it go, already...I had a guy tell me for months that I didn't know what 'close-embrace' meant...he had me really puzzled until I saw him dance..then I didn't care what the hell he meant. He said that this was not close embrace dancing...how would you like to be a beginner and get this input??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdbpjesqFpI
Perhaps you'ld care to agree with him?
Now, I finally know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.:uplaugh:

 

[Peaches]

Now, I finally know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.:uplaugh:

Um...what do you mean by this?

 

[Subliminal]

Several people have already summed it up better than I have. Good dancers don't always make good teachers. And what you're suggesting smacks of elitism. I know as a beginner I would want nothing to do with a board that had such a requirement.

 

[ant]

It is unreasonable... someone can be better at explaining something than they are at demonstrating it.

- Pupy Castello was confined to a wheelchair,
- great Figure skating coaches
- Einstein to teach you basic math?

I KNOW I make some of the same mistakes I correct in a student.

It does seem a bit unreasonable to use people that have established their credentials in their given sphere but are not able to perform to the level of their knowledge and then compare that to a person who has not established their credentials.

I would also say that generally people that know what they talking about make sense when they say something to you even if you may not care for the delivery. It is generally apparent when there is someone not knowing what they talking about passing opinion in such a way that it is authorative, you know it does not sound right. To cap it all when you see that person perform in a manner that suggests a lack of knowledge that just confirms your suspicions of that person, it really can cheese you off. That is how Mario's post came across to me.

I would go even further, if you read Marios post he it sounded to me that he was talking about people whose opinions he had not sort, he received opinions that did not make sense and to cap it all when he saw the way they danced it just annoyed him no end.

It seems to me that he is not saying people should not have an opinion and state that opinion. Rather, a person has a responsibility to consider their qualifications/experience etc when passing an opinion and the knowledge of the person should reflect in the tone of the opinion. As you cannot trust that principle in some people maybe other ways of considering the weight he would like to attach to an opinion should be considered.

 

[Zoopsia59]

My original post was clear

Apparently not... or I wouldn't have asked for clarification

After you clarified, I disagreed. That doesn't make it ridiculous.
You have an opinion. When others don't share it, they're ridiculous? Whats THAT about? Sheesh.

I DO agree that if you are dancing one style and someone tells you vehemently that you should do x and y and what you are doing is all wrong, it is helpful to know if they think you're technique is wrong or if they just think the entire STYLE is wrong.

My teacher/partner was "corrected" by a beginner one time who told him he just needed to open the embrace more so I had room to pivot in order to exectute my ocho "properly". We were doing "crossed-back ochos" in an apilado flat-on embrace. Since this guy had never seen them , he thought they were "wrong".

Rather than get in a huff about it, my partner talked to him about various styles.

On the other hand, if my partner had been a beginner and therefore not aware that the other guy's comments were useless in context, then hopefully he would then go to his teacher and ask why he was teaching something different that what others say is correct. Then he could evaluate how he wanted to proceed based on his coach's info combined with other input he got from around the real life and virtual blogospheres.

If someone makes a suggestion, and it helps your dancing , it was a good suggestion. If it doesn't help, then let it go. You don't need to see a video of someone proving their ability to implement the suggestion to decide whether they are worth listening to. You can decide by simply trying out what is offered in the way of suggestions and deciding if they help.

 

[Zoopsia59]

a person who has not established their credentials.

But what constitutes credentials? That's the gist of MY point. Credentials as an instructor are different than credentials as a practitioner. To use the skating example I mentioned before:

(From Wiki... edited)
Yao Bin ... has almost single-handedly turned China into a pair skating world power.
In the closed society of mid-20th century China, Luan and Yao had only photographs from which to learn their moves. At the 1980 World's they finished 15th (in last place). They competed at the World Championships twice more in 1981 and 1982, finishing last both times. They also placed 15th at the 84 Olympics. After these embarrassing experiences, Yao was determined to create a team of world-class figure skaters from China. (and retired from competition)


Among Yao's current and former students are Shen and Zhao, who he coached to two Olympic bronze medals and seven World medals, (and other world level medalists)
In 2004 Yao came full circle--at the World Championships in Dortmund, where 24 years prior he and his partner had finished last, Yao's pair teams placed 2nd, 3rd, and 5th. That year, Yao received International Figure Skating Magazine's Coach of the Year award.


(end Wiki)



If you evaluated Yao on the basis of his own competitive and performance skating skills, he would never be considered a good coach. Thankfully he was in an environment where this did not impede his ability to establish himself as a coach, and he has given the skating world some of the most beautiful and exciting pair teams to come along in decades, nurturing them to the very top of the sport.


However, if you saw a video of him skating, you would probably guffaw and comment (as did the great Irina Rodnina.. one of the most decorated pairs skaters in history) that it was simply comical.

 

[Mario7]

This just isn't fun anymore.
..not even interesting.

 

[ant]

But what constitutes credentials? That's the gist of MY point. Credentials as an instructor are different than credentials as a practitioner. To use the skating example I mentioned before:

The point Mario was making was that what you say tells people what you know but this is sometimes masked by the manner in which a person speaks. Hence, some people talk with absolute authority but know very little and when you see them perform, this point is proven.

Others know alot but can't express their knowledge but when you see them perform you want to try and understand what they are saying because they have the knowledge.

You are in the lucky category of having the knowledge and being able to express it and I would hazard a guess and say that you can perform it as well.

If you evaluated Yao on the basis of his own competitive and performance skating skills, he would never be considered a good coach.

He obviously speaks sense and this is his proof of his knowledge. You do not need to look further.

 

[Peaches]

And other people simply see it in a different way, and disagree.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I would hazard a guess and say that you can perform it as well.
.

Nowhere nearly as well as I would like....

 

[Angel HI]

This just isn't fun anymore...not even interesting.

Perhaps, not fun, but, yes, interesting. It is a perfect example of how the written word needs more care, and understanding, than the spoken word. Perhaps, we can suffice this to say that;

• a person might certainly be a great dancer, but can not teach
• a person might be a great teacher but can not dance
• one does not 'have' to see a demonstration in order to decide if another knows what they are talking about (as one poster said, simply try it; if it works great; if not... great)
• most importantly, be true to one's self (this is to say to be honest in your own knowledge. It is ok to not know something. Many consider this to be a better place than to already know, for if one does not know, then one is open to learn, gain, experience, and grow.

Most of all, let's all remember that this is a written forum of opinion and thought. Let's try to be more tolerant of both.

 

[opendoor]

Oh, if I only had more money I would argue to have an annual meeting somewhere throughout the world....