The Follower's Point of View

[David_In_CA]

Gobsmacked.

The thoughts and opinions I wrote on the previous 12 pages of this thread, of which I am the OP, might, just might indicate my dedication to the art of following. But just in case you missed it: I've been studying dance as a follow for over a decade, and put in considerable time, effort, care, thought, work, study, and gobs of money, learning to follow well. I am the last person to undersell how much work great followers put into following.

The. Last.

So. I may have misinterpreted what you were saying. But it seemed to me that you were saying that it was not possible to misinterpret a one-beat lead.

I don't think for an instant that you think that following as its own skill is not a challenging, long path. However...

To me, the idea that any general follow (note: not you specifically*) cannot misinterpret a lead undersells how difficult the skill of following is.

If a follow can't get misinterpret it, then it's not something they need to work on (vs general dance skills like balance, QoM, musicality, etc.). We only need to spend energy and time on the things we get wrong or do insufficiently well.

This is sort of a variation of why the social dance nicety of "it's always the lead's fault" is really fairly insulting to follows.


* The reason why I (and Joe, I assume) keep saying variations of this is because you obviously are extremely knowledgeable and have put in tons of work on your dance.

 

[Joe]

I mean, there is a certain amount of responsibility for a leader to quickly determine how (in)experienced a follower is, and ensure that the lead provided is suited to that level.

 

[David_In_CA]

I don't mind someone staying comfortably within my abilities, but people who push those also help me grow and discover things to work on. I guess my take is that as long as it's not dangerous, it doesn't hurt to try things that might fail (as long as it's not the whole dance). But "always the lead's fault" takes away agency from the follow.

 

[j_alexandra]

So. I may have misinterpreted what you were saying. But it seemed to me that you were saying that it was not possible to misinterpret a one-beat lead.

To me, the idea that any general follow (note: not you specifically*) cannot misinterpret a lead undersells how difficult the skill of following is.

How on earth did "I don't know what you think you led. I only know what you led," become "cannot misinterpret a lead"? Oh, yeah, leads are making it all about them; follows misinterpret.

If you led me to move over here or over there or to shape this way or to rise or what ever, then you did. If you sent mixed messages, unclear signals, fuzzy, noisy suggestions, then you did. It does not matter what you thought you were leading; it only matters what you actually led.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

How on earth did "I don't know what you think you led. I only know what you led," become "cannot misinterpret a lead"?

I think what he's seeing is that "I only know what you led" implies "I know what you led", which if always true, becomes "cannot misinterpret a lead".

Of course, I actually do think that the followers know what I led in some sense, even if they don't think about it consciously, and to me, that does imply it's "always the lead's fault". But yes, I've seen complaints from followers on Dance Forums that seem to imply that formulation "takes away agency from the follow" as David_in_CA says.

On the actual dance floor, I've never encountered objections from followers to leaders who always assume fault and thus never blame the follower.

I guess my take is that as long as it's not dangerous, it doesn't hurt to try things that might fail (as long as it's not the whole dance).

My social dance experience is that not every, but the majority, of followers are not interested in things that fail, which of course militates against things that might fail, so I agree with Joe there. Granted followers tend to be thrilled with things that succeed that they thought were beyond their abilities, but that requires even finer determination of a follower's abilities.

From the very few followers who have explicitly said they wanted me to "do the fancy stuff" seem to be thinking that I'll be able magically to carry them through it successfully. I'm not actually that good or strong.

 

[IndyLady]

On the actual dance floor, I've never encountered objections from followers to leaders who always assume fault and thus never blame the follower.

That's because you've never danced with me. I am more than happy to take responsibility when I know I botched something, but often the lead refuses to accept that. So we play a little tug-of-war. "It's my fault." "No, it's my fault." It's probably one of those Midwest culture quirks.

My social dance experience is that not every, but the majority, of followers are not interested in things that fail, which of course militates against things that might fail, so I agree with Joe there. Granted followers tend to be thrilled with things that succeed that they thought were beyond their abilities, but that requires even finer determination of a follower's abilities.

From the very few followers who have explicitly said they wanted me to "do the fancy stuff" seem to be thinking that I'll be able magically to carry them through it successfully. I'm not actually that good or strong.

I'm fine with fancy stuff that is likely to fail. In fact, it would be problematic if I wasn't, given the number of times I hear "I'm going to try something." And it's not the end of the world if it fails, and if the lead wants to try again. What I don't want, is an on-floor lecture or immediate post-mortem debrief of what I'm allegedly supposed to be doing or other instruction. We're on a social dance, not a lesson. This song is anywhere from 2-5 minutes, let's get some actual dancing in. Save the trouble-shooting for later.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

That's because you've never danced with me. I am more than happy to take responsibility when I know I botched something, but often the lead refuses to accept that. So we play a little tug-of-war. "It's my fault." "No, it's my fault." It's probably one of those Midwest culture quirks.

I have had that happen. It's more a friendly "agree to disagree" thing than an actual objection to the other person taking responsibility, though.

 

[Cal]

I, for one, will confess that as a Follow I miss/misinterpret leads (even perfect leads from my Pros) all the time. Maybe it’s because (as I’ve noted before) I don’t “feel” the lead as the first input of information. Instead, I first process where we are on the floor, what foot is free, am I in-line or outside partner, what’s our alignment…..by the time I process the “feel” of the flat or rise of the lead for the Natural Spin Turn or Impetus, it can be too late for me to follow it adequately. (Kind of like driving along the expressway, looking for the right exit, and realizing, too late, that I’ve just driven past it.)

I really wish that I could “feel” the lead earlier in my processing, but I just don’t.

 

[lucia_l]

I also admit when I know I botched something in social dancing. "Oh... that's not what you lead."
I don't necessarily admit it in a lesson because I might not know. But my pro does.

I also sometimes tell the lead that I don't know that figure if I think that's the problem. I don't necessarily think they can automatically know that I don't know the Silver syllabus, and some things I will. I know some silver patterns. Heck, I know some Gold patterns. But others? Not so much. If you lead them I might follow, or I might not.

Sometimes a lead implies it was me.... when it was not. I don't argue. ( I mean.... sorry, but you don't know how to lead a turn into promenade might be true. But he's not going to fix it during the social dance and I couldn't explain the correct thing to do anyway.)

( Now that I said I don't know silver syllabus, people who might see my entries for an upcoming comp will say... ehrmm... you don't even know silver syllabus... So will you plu-leez explain these entries? But...well... we want to do our open VW. So... yeah... We may come in dead last is Open Smooth Scholarship. Dead. Last. Did I say I may have bit off more than I can chew on another thread? Given the way things are for me right now, my "goal" is "survive" and "do a respectable for me job on my dances given.... circumstances" and would be even if I weren't entering an event where I'm likely to be dead last. )

 

[David_In_CA]

How on earth did "I don't know what you think you led. I only know what you led," become "cannot misinterpret a lead"? Oh, yeah, leads are making it all about them; follows misinterpret.

I mean, I spent a half hour of my lesson with my instructor Saturday morning debugging a connection issue in my left hand that I'm having when I follow through various turns, and the proper reaction I should have when my arm is moved closer to my centerline during an anchor. I don't think this is leads making it about themselves. That said, I'm using "I" a lot, but I don't see another way to write from my own experience as a follow.

If you led me to move over here or over there or to shape this way or to rise or what ever, then you did. If you sent mixed messages, unclear signals, fuzzy, noisy suggestions, then you did.

Maybe this is true for the specific "you". But for the specific "me", I have pretty clear examples where I do in fact misinterpret a lead. What I know is that force is being applied to my hand in a particular direction. What I don't always know is how my body is supposed to react to that. I can, do, and have examples of Champion level WCS dancers leading me where I'm quite confident that they led me as clearly as anyone could expect, but I did not move in the way that was led.

Maybe there's semantics here. I know that force is applied to my hand. I know that my response was X. To me, that doesn't mean that the lead was X. It means that after the movement worked its way through the janky kinematics chain that is my body and brain, the end result was X.

 

[IndyLady]

I spent a half hour ... Saturday morning debugging a connection issue in my left hand that I'm having

Excuse me, sorry, this is Dance Forums, not Programming Forums.

 

[j_alexandra]

It seems to me, though, that part of developing a followers skill set is learning a set of proper responses to an input. And if the input and the response are misaligned, you get what Joe is referring to: a miscommunication where the follower feels a certain thing, recognizes that thing, but responds improperly. Hence, in shorthand, "what I think you led."

What do you think?

If I recognize what you led, and I willfully do something else, that's Bad Following; my bad. If I miss your signal altogether, my bad. No matter what the outcome, I don't know what you think you led. I only know what you led.

This re-focusing of the conversation into being about follows misinterpreting the lead distracts from the basic premise: I cannot read your mind. I can only read your lead. What happens after I read your lead is a separate issue.

You Leads want to talk about follows misinterpreting your leads? Happy to do so, and even listen carefully and pay attention and respond to your input* -- in a thread about leading. This thread is about The Followers Point Of View.

*kinda like following, when you think about it

 

[David_In_CA]

If I miss your signal altogether, my bad. No matter what the outcome, I don't know what you think you led. I only know what you led.

Maybe this is semantics, then. Yes, outside of classes we generally only know what happened, not what was intended. But I would say that I don't necessarily know what was led, because I might not have kept my frame connected well enough, or be familiar enough with a shape to reproduce it.

You Leads want to talk about follows misinterpreting your leads?

Just, like, you know... for the record... I take group and private lessons as a follow, and have gone to workshop weekends for following and switching. Depending on the night, I might follow or switch for more dances than I lead.

 

[DanceMentor]

In a tango back corte often the lead with signal a strong shape on his LF bwd step. Many times the lady will dance this with a head turn to pp. A pp head position may not be what he intended or what he lead. Perhaps he only wanted strong cbmp, but ladies shape to cbmp and turn their heads to pp anyway. Even with leaders that I KNOW can lead it both ways, there are plenty of followers who only respond with both cbmp AND pp.

So ugh I kind agree with the boys at the moment ...lol. I can lead something and the follow will do what she thinks I had lead... because that is what the extent of her vocabulary tells her to do.

So what do you do in this situation? If a follower is prone to turn their head when not lead to do so, what sort of conversation might you have about that?

 

[j_alexandra]

In a tango back corte often the lead with signal a strong shape on his LF bwd step. Many times the lady will dance this with a head turn to pp. A pp head position may not be what he intended or what he lead. Perhaps he only wanted strong cbmp, but ladies shape to cbmp and turn their heads to pp anyway. Even with leaders that I KNOW can lead it both ways, there are plenty of followers who only respond with both cbmp AND pp.

So ugh I kind agree with the boys at the moment ...lol. I can lead something and the follow will do what she thinks I had lead... because that is what the extent of her vocabulary tells her to do.

Still separate issues. In this case, I know what you lead, because you suggest that I move my body weight forward on a leg, in such and such a shape, without rise, with such and such timing, and either do or do not open my head. Whether I actually do what you lead is a separate issue.

If I turn my head when you don't indicate it, my bad, etc. etc. If you *do* open my head, and I turn it, and you claim you didn't, then I don't know what you think you led, I only know what you led.

Real life example: I took a quickstep lesson from a teacher in Virginia, who kept leading me to open my head, then fussing at me when I turned my head in response to his lead. "You're turning your head!" he said. "No, *you're* turning my head."

He did not know he was leading me to open my head. I received a lead to turn my head, and I turned my head. I did not know what he thought he led; I only knew what he led.