Warren J. Dew
Forum Master
Exactly what I was tempted to post. He needs to see the consequences of the mistake to get the feedback to correct it.
The Follower's Point of View
- Thread starter j_alexandra
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Exactly what I was tempted to post. He needs to see the consequences of the mistake to get the feedback to correct it.
raindance
Forum Master
When the consequence is me getting injured, I always reserved the right to protect myself. I'd have had a few concussions instead of just bruises if I always blindly followed his lead.
He doesn't get infinite tries to learn from mistakes at my expense. A highly ranked traveling coach watched him nearly ram me into the only other couple in the studio on a big floor, and she said I was correct to redirect his (our) movement. I had to do that numerous times on the comp floor and it usually worked quite well. With a different leader with better (safe,basic stuff) floor craft things could have been different.
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Dance Redeemer
Well-Known Member
Yes, but I am more comfortable following Standard with a good lead, and I know I get a lot of input from all the points of contact. In Latin, I do use more cues (especially visual cues) than I do in Standard, although as I noted, I use non-feeling cues even in Standard. But I've also found that miscues in Latin (or Salsa) are often less disruptive for the dance to continue. Incidentally, because I think it's easier to recover from disconnects like this in Latin or in ballroom where we aren't dancing in closed hold, I have a strong preference for dancing those styles (i.e., not closed-hold Standard) with less experienced leads. This may be consistent with the idea that a less experienced lead introduces a lot of noise into their movement (for example, the rise is not consistent with the footwork or foot placement) so I can't pick up on the signal that well.
I think most dancers I follow expect me to follow without trying to guess the pattern. Filtering out the noise, though, isn't really that so much. It's recognizing what movements are just things that happen all the time that are meaningless, or are a result of a balance problem that the lead has, etc. A noiseless connection usually puts the lead at a reasonably high skill level.
I don't expect it's deliberate. I think the leads are probably trying to be as clear as they can be, and I'm trying to be a receptive as I can be.
To go back to "I know what was led" -- part of what I'm working on is my consistency in how I respond to a lead. Right now I don't always respond consistently. So I might not take a prep quite as effectively every time, or might misread a lead to come forward but stay backweighted in stretch as a lead to come forward out of stretch, because my activation thresholds aren't as consistent as they could be.
I really didn't think I was talking about leading. My intention has been to talk about trying to follow a lead*, from my own perspective as someone who follows pretty regularly in a social context, and is actively working on improving at it.
* not a pattern
Warren J. Dew
Forum Master
Sure. This is when it's fine to stop dancing. But:
Did he not have a "brake pedal" that you knew how to use? If not, his regular coach was remiss in not training it into him. It works way better than the equivalent of sticking one's foot out the door and dragging it against the pavement to slow the car, as it were.
To me, "just follow" includes following the things you characterize as "noise" here. It's more than just "not guessing". Footsteps happen all the time, but that doesn't mean they should be ignored. Followers - and leaders - with better balance can "lend" some of it to their partners before it becomes necessary for either partner to adjust their movements.
Agreed, but that's noise. I have to read the balance problem as something to help stabilize and not as a weak or unclear lead to, e.g., swivel, or take a side step, or to shape into it. Or, for a different example, some newer leads will raise their hands a weird amount when leading a sugar push. High enough that our arms make a W shape, but much too low to be a lead for a anything else. Or will have a tendency to bob their hands up and down a little.
"Lending." Hmm - lending. THIS is a concept that I think I can explore a bit more.
Thanks.
raindance
Forum Master
I didn't mean stop dancing, though that was always available as a last resort depending on the situation. (Heck, in a truly bad situation I could drop hold, walk off the floor, and head for the dressing room!!) And I don't need anyone's permission to stop dancing. The lead and follow relationship is voluntary. If a lead isn't treating me acceptably, I've no obligation to continue the dance. This is a hobby, not an occupation. We were a dance couple, he gets to lead, I try to follow, but he was not my boss.
As I said, often the dance could continue safely if I redirected movement (rotated a bit more or less to affect alignment, took bigger or smaller steps, etc). These things would help us as a couple do evasive maneuvers and avoid a collision with another couple, a wall, a spectator, etc. The sorts of things a leader might do as part of floorcraft. But in some cases, I as a follower was taking over a bit of that role at times. Not in planning what figure is next, but in the execution of steps or figures. Many other times, he made these adjustments, and I just followed, and that was great. But while I was "just following" my brain was still active, watching out for times I would need to intervene. Some times that felt like great teamwork to both of us (he can't see 360 and neither can I, and the other couples are moving in unpredictable ways). Other times it felt like "geez, why are you running me so close to the wall again that I'm going to hit my head if I go where your lead is telling me" and I would do what I needed to do so I didn't hit my head on the wall.
I used a wide variety of ways to adjust things as needed, and/or to signal him that an adjustment was needed. I gained experience over time with this specific partner about what techniques would work with him. If I made him too grumpy, he'd start man-handling me (trying to force me to go where he wanted rather than leading me to go a certain way), which was counter productive and painful. So I was always "reading the room" to see what sorts of adjustments would work with him at a given time. Relaxed practice vs. lesson vs. local comp floor vs. nationals vs. no sleep last night for one of us, etc could all be different.
Tell me what specifically you mean by brake pedal.
No idea why you think I was doing something similar to dragging a foot out the door to slow a car (not sure I'd even do that on a bicycle if I could avoid it), most times it was pretty subtle I think, unless one's expectation is that the follow should always, always, follow exactly what is led, even if there is a collision coming, even if they have a sore knee and can't step that big comfortably today, etc, etc. With a completely trustworthy and clearly communicating leader I would try to do that, of course, but I was only bronze/silver when I stopped competing, so I'm sure I was never 100% successful.
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raindance
Forum Master
FWIW this partner had many other good qualities. But when focusing on the many layers of technique, he at times forget to keep my safety as a primary baseline goal ahead of thinking about whatever technique stuff he was working on. And since it wasn't his head, he was comfortable with a lot more close calls (with walls or those darned poles in the middle of the floor in some studios, for instance) than I was. You want me to shape like that and move big, you need to keep me from hitting walls and poles, and not just most of the time. Or else I will keep me from hitting walls. Etc.
Also FWIW we were an am/am couple working on styles that were less commonly taught in our area. So we were patching together our instruction in less than ideal circumstances. A lot of our most helpful input came from traveling coaches that came through every few months, and not from local pros. Since there were not highly qualified local pros in a short driving distance from us, we didn't get to work with the ones that were a few hours away as often as we'd have liked. It's not like we were in NYC or the right parts of CA or somewhere like that where we could work with really qualified pros anytime we wanted. But we did OK, winning nationals in our division at one point.
Also FWIW we were an am/am couple working on styles that were less commonly taught in our area. So we were patching together our instruction in less than ideal circumstances. A lot of our most helpful input came from traveling coaches that came through every few months, and not from local pros. Since there were not highly qualified local pros in a short driving distance from us, we didn't get to work with the ones that were a few hours away as often as we'd have liked. It's not like we were in NYC or the right parts of CA or somewhere like that where we could work with really qualified pros anytime we wanted. But we did OK, winning nationals in our division at one point.
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Warren J. Dew
Forum Master
I'll start with this part since it informs the rest of my response.
The form of "brake pedal" I learned, in Standard and Smooth, was at the point of the leader's right deltoid, where the follower could squeeze with her thumb and middle finger, which was supposed to result in the leader's slowing down or, depending on the strength of the squeeze, stopping. Some coaches taught a lift of the follower's left arm instead of the squeeze, but while I found the squeeze a very natural signal, I was never able to sense the lift well enough for effective use in floorcraft emergencies.
The way various partners and I were taught this was generally with the following simile:
Squeeze = use the brake pedal.
Follower slows down or cuts distance to avoid colllision = stick the foot out the door and drag it on the pavement to stop the car.
Follower curves the movement to avoid collision = grab the steering wheel away from the driver.
This is why I consider stopping dancing a better alternative than the last two.
Now, it is different in open Smooth, outside of closed position, with a regular partner, where the partners move independently enough when apart that the follower can make some floorcraft adjustments without disturbing the leader. That may also be the case for Latin and Rhythm. And with a long term competitive partner, the partners may be in sufficient sync that "reading partner's mind" becomes a realistic option in some situations, in both directions.
raindance
Forum Master
I certainly used pressure on my partner's deltoid to communicate. This happened naturally for me, and he seemed to respond to it naturally as well. It's been a while, but I think in addition to Joe's light squeeze vs. harder squeeze, I could also press a bit to the left or the right to indicate something about direction.