The long-term solution is dual-role dancing?

[JournalInTime]

As someone else said… ‘HYPERACTIVE.’

But the replies to that post are both honest and enlightening, ehich I appreciate.

Apparently a lead’s tolerance for being aggressively backled or a follower not understanding his proposals is directly affected by the follower’s hotness. I find this honest and genetic. : D

Also, it's super-important to distinguish back-leading from active following. They're at best distant cousins. As I said:

Passive, Not Playful: Lead for X1 -> X1, and my next lead can be for X2 as planned.​

Passive, Playful: Lead for X1 -> [Mysterious Follower Black Box] -> X1, and my next lead can be for X2 as planned.​

Active: Lead for X1 -> [Mysterious Follower Black Box] -> Y1, and my next lead has to be Y2, which is not as planned.​

Back-Leading: Vague lead that could be for X1 or Y1 -> [Signal Discriminator and Amplifier] -> X1 or Y1, depending on what my follower felt, and my next lead might be for X2 or Y2 as a result.​

There's a big difference between a sensible proposal in response to my lead and somebody deciding what my lead was and forcing a response that doesn't make sense. It's the difference between:

Passive, not playful:

"Do you want a Martini?"
"Sure."

Passive, playful:

"Do you want a Martini?"
"Absolutely! Plymouth gin, splash of Noilly Pratt, three olives, please."

Active:

"Do you want a Martini?"
"How about a Rob Roy instead?"

Back-leader:

"Do you want a Martini?"
"You don't know how to make a Martini. Step aside and let me do it."

 

[Rabbit]

Apparently a lead’s tolerance for being aggressively backled or a follower not understanding his proposals is directly affected by the follower’s hotness. I find this honest and genetic. : D

I explicitly tell everyone I dance with regularly that they do not have to follow the lead and can do whatever they feel in the moment

If other leaders can't improvise, not my problem

 

[JournalInTime]

I explicitly tell everyone I dance with regularly that they do not have to follow the lead and can do whatever they feel in the moment

I do this, too! Glad that you said it first, because I was starting to feel like I was crazy. Well, I might be crazy, but I'm not alone in my madness.

My usual line is, "Do what you like, as long as it respects the music and doesn't hurt me!" I do think those two qualifiers are important.

If other leaders can't improvise, not my problem

I feel the same way. A significant part of my pleasure in dancing tango, perhaps the single largest part if I'm being honest, comes from improvising responses to what my follower hands me. It's same reason why I'm fond of conversation: I'm getting the viewpoint of someone else and I can't predict what's coming, but if I think on my feet, I can respond intelligently and keep the ball in play.

I guess some people prefer conversations that go like call-and-response songs or prayers, but I find ritual like that deadly boring.

 

[pianistamediano]

I explicitly tell everyone I dance with regularly that they do not have to follow the lead and can do whatever they feel in the moment

There is some nebulous line of how often a follower doesn't follow a lead and/or how precisely or vaguely that lead is interpreted that, once crossed, means that the follower is no longer dancing together with the leader, and is essentially doing her own thing.

Personally, beyond that line, I don't see any point in dancing together. I don't like being treated like the pole of a pole dancer.

I dance with some followers where there is a constant feedback loop of improvisation and playing off each other that goes way beyond call-response (which bores me terribly when done in excess and doesn't fit the music), but that requires a high level of body communication and intuition, which most followers don't really have and don't bother working on enough.

 

[JournalInTime]

There is some nebulous line of how often a follower doesn't follow a lead and/or how precisely or vaguely that lead is interpreted that, once crossed, means that the follower is no longer dancing together with the leader, and is essentially doing her own thing.

Personally, beyond that line, I don't see any point in dancing together. I don't like being treated like the pole of a pole dancer.

Strangely, I find that line isn't between "passive" and "active," but between "playful" and "too playful." The whole "I feel like a ballet barre or pole-dancing pole" sensation sets in when there are too many adornos. Active followers are dancing with me, just in a way I didn't expect; over-playful followers are overexpressing my lead and so dancing with my lead rather than with me. Belaboring my barman example above:

Passive, playful:

"Do you want a Martini?"
"Absolutely! Plymouth gin, splash of Noilly Pratt, three olives, please."

Goes with the offer but makes it their own with a reasonable request.

Passive, excessively playful:

"Do you want a Martini?"
"I love Martinis. What gin do you have? Hm, maybe Plymouth, but sometimes I like Bombay. Remind me again what 'dry' means. Anyway, not that. I prefer a lemon twist, but could you cut it to look like a fan? Oh, I know coupe glasses are in, but I'd really like it in one of those triangular glasses like in the movies.."
"Why don't you just come back here and make it yourself?"

Goes with the offer but drags it out with an unreasonable request.

Active:

"Do you want a Martini?"
"How about a Rob Roy instead?"

Meets the offer with a reasonable alternative that's a variation on the theme that requires no more effort than the original offer.

I dance with some followers where there is a constant feedback loop of improvisation that goes way beyond call-response (which bores me terribly when done in excess), but that requires a high level of body communication and intuition, which most followers don't really have.

To be fair, most leaders don't really have it, either. It isn't a leader-follower thing; it's a question of somatic listening, which is necessary in either role.

 

[pianistamediano]

Active:

"Do you want a Martini?"
"How about a Rob Roy instead?"

Meets the offer with a reasonable alternative that's a variation on the theme that requires no more effort than the original offer.

Excellent analogy, but I fear it is lost on people who don't know each of their ingredients! There has to be some common ground between the offer/alternative (which makes it reasonable), and therefore makes following active, rather than too playful/outright ignoring the leader/doing their own thing.

 

[David_In_CA]

Back-leader:

"Do you want a Martini?"
"You don't know how to make a Martini. Step aside and let me do it."

Back-leader:

"Do you want a Martini?"

"Yes, please, medium-rare."

 

[pianistamediano]

To be fair, most leaders don't really have it, either. It isn't a leader-follower thing; it's a question of somatic listening, which is necessary in either role.

Here in London, I find that all my time and effort spent on developing somatic listening is rarely appreciated, mostly by visitors.

 

[pianistamediano]

Back-leader:

"Do you want a Martini?"

"Yes, please, medium-rare."

I want my steak shaken, not stirred!

 

[JournalInTime]

Back-leader:

"Do you want a Martini?"

"Yes, please, medium-rare."

Oh, that's good!

 

[JournalInTime]

Excellent analogy, but I fear it is lost on people who don't know each of their ingredients!

Definitely the case. When I worked as a barman, I appreciated most the customers who knew the basic makeup of the cocktail they were ordering, the possible calls for spirits in the drink, and typical ordering options, and also what cocktail family it belonged to and what substitutions were possible at the same general price point and workload. Same goes for being a leader: I appreciate most the followers who recognize what I'm leading and know how it can be changed up without disrupting flow. The range is surprisingly huge . . .

 

[Be Present]

Back-leader:

"Do you want a Martini?"

“I’m sure you would prefer a Mojito”

 

[Be Present]

Yelizaveta's Tango Banters (her podcast) are also quite enjoyable to listen to, I highly recommend them too!

This relates to the thread, but I really want to give these guys a shout out. I love their videos. They are honest, real, funny, and experienced!

 

[pianistamediano]

This relates to the thread, but I really want to give these guys a shout out. I love their videos. They are honest, real, funny, and experienced!

Love them too

 

[Rabbit]

but that requires a high level of body communication and intuition, which most followers don't really have and don't bother working on enough.

To be fair, most leaders don't really have it, either. It isn't a leader-follower thing; it's a question of somatic listening, which is necessary in either role.

It's just one of the holes in the state of tango teaching currently. Well - think of it as an opportunity for the current/next generation of dancers to improve over the previous ones.