The long-term solution is dual-role dancing?

[brujo]

Organizers also can’t force people to go to all the events. I went to a NYE event that was role balanced but some people got sick, others left somewhere else early to watch a drone show or because it just got too crowded. So all of this is best effort.

Also, it seems like role balanced simply means “not too many women to compete with”. But that doesn’t really encourage people to stick around or try the events. I’ve met more and more people that love the tango bits of technique and use it in all the other dances but don’t participate in the culture or scene.

When there are more leads than follows, organizers are happy to take the men’s money and they often never ever complain about sitting on the sidelines waiting for a dance. They just blame it on themselves not being good enough.

 

[itwillhappen]

Organizers also can’t force people to go to all the events. I went to a NYE event that was role balanced but some people got sick, others left somewhere else early to watch a drone show or because it just got too crowded. So all of this is best effort.

Stable couples have some organizational advantages: they usually arrive together, leave together, or cancel together.

Also, it seems like role balanced simply means “not too many women to compete with”.

My impression is that around half the people at events here are in couples. And for them, this format has obvious advantages.

But that doesn’t really encourage people to stick around or try the events. I’ve met more and more people that love the tango bits of technique and use it in all the other dances but don’t participate in the culture or scene.

Tango is just a leisure activity; inevitably, something else will come into fashion ... at some point(!).

When there are more leads than follows, organizers are happy to take the men’s money and they often never ever complain about sitting on the sidelines waiting for a dance. They just blame it on themselves not being good enough.

You pay your entrance fee to cover costs, not for your dancing. And you're only truly free when you couldn't care less whether you dance or not.

 

[Miradamiranda]

I honestly don’t see why weekend events’ role balance needs to be enforced any more than a walk-in regular milonga. If there aren’t enough guys, women simply start dancing with each other. It’s self-regulating. There’s enough critical mass now of decent female leaders in most places. Not like 15 years ago where it was more of a novelty. It’s a win-win situation for both men and women. The demand for male leaders is not diminished, but there’s less pressure on them, and they have more women to chose from.

 

[opendoor]

..There’s enough critical mass now of decent female leaders in most places. Not like 15 years ago where it was more of a novelty..

I don't think the physical number of double-rolers has changed in the last 20 years. What has changed is the mindset. Previously, followers would say, "If I stand up and lead now, I'll be stigmatized and won't be invited anymore". So they stayed seated and waited. Leading women have always been there, but those who did it publicly were treated like a third gender. That's no longer the case, and that's why the role reversal is becoming more fluid.

 

[Bailango]

I don't think the physical number of double-rolers has changed in the last 20 years. What has changed is the mindset. Previously, followers would say, "If I stand up and lead now, I'll be stigmatized and won't be invited anymore". So they stayed seated and waited. Leading women have always been there, but those who did it publicly were treated like a third gender. That's no longer the case, and that's why the role reversal is becoming more fluid.

I agree that women who wanted to lead have been there before too. Based on what I read here, what has changed is the motivation. Now there are women getting into leading because they can dance more.

 

[Bailango]

I honestly don’t see why weekend events’ role balance needs to be enforced any more than a walk-in regular milonga. If there aren’t enough guys, women simply start dancing with each other. It’s self-regulating. There’s enough critical mass now of decent female leaders in most places. Not like 15 years ago where it was more of a novelty. It’s a win-win situation for both men and women. The demand for male leaders is not diminished, but there’s less pressure on them, and they have more women to chose from.

Coming from a leader heavy scene, I definitely don’t see men resorting to following .

Another thing that no one admits and isn’t only about tango, is that women are comfortable being physically close with each other. While in the west it can be partly attributed to homophobia, I don’t think it is only that. In many parts of Asia and Latin America men will hold hands or touch each other, which in the west will be stigmatized as homosexual behavior. Yet Latin America is more homophobic that USA or Western Europe.

Personally I have no interest in dancing at milonga with another man as a follower. I would rather seat and not dance. At practica I would lead a man if he requests it. And I have no interest nor ever had an interest in trying to find a woman at milongas.

 

[brujo]

Coming from a leader heavy scene, I definitely don’t see men resorting to following .

You’re definitively more motivated to learn to follow in a scene that is female heavy. I am currently in one and find that outside of tango, a lot more women have experience leading other women and men from scenes like swing and such. So they get really happy and enthusiastic when as a man I ask to follow them. This then motivates me to learn to follow better as a man in all my dances, including tango.

When I was in a lead heavy scene, I was never motivated to learn to follow because you didn’t get that many chances to even interact with the women as much. They just kept leveling up their following and if they lead it would be with the other advanced followers in their clique.

It’s never really for the other men but for the women. You look at couples that dance together and sometimes you see them switch in the middle of a dance and want to learn how to do that.

 

[Miradamiranda]

Several of my regular/favorite partners have been pushing me to lead so they can dance with me switching roles. I’m reluctant because if I’m leading them, it’s not as good a dance as when I’m following them. They want to become better followers, I’m the same height and strength as them, and switching roles takes away the potential perceived stigma of man dancing with man.

 

[Brummbaer]

Several of my regular/favorite partners have been pushing me to lead so they can dance with me switching roles. I’m reluctant because if I’m leading them, it’s not as good a dance as when I’m following them. They want to become better followers, I’m the same height and strength as them, and switching roles takes away the potential perceived stigma of man dancing with man.

One primary role has been perfectly adequate for many. The secondary (opposite) role was usually aimed at improving the primary - to learn what was experienced in order to provide similar, or better, not to provide a 'dual role'. Although there's a capability to do that, it doesn't have to be exercised as routine.

The justification for 'dual role' as any solution for a shortage of 'single role' dancers of the complementary role just seems the wrong method of providing role balance.

 

[brujo]

The justification for 'dual role' as any solution for a shortage of 'single role' dancers of the complementary role just seems the wrong method of providing role balance.

At least in tango it feels like dual role is one role per song or tanda. Where one person in rigidly a lead and another one the follow.

Dual role in a few of the other dances like fusion or swing is about role fluidity, where even in the same song you frequently transfer the role from one to another. It’s pretty typical to ask the other person “lead, follow, or switch?” at fusion events. However I do notice that many women in swing or fusion tend to prefer a follow role despite this suggested fluidity.

 

[Brummbaer]

At least in tango it feels like dual role is one role per song or tanda. Where one person in rigidly a lead and another one the follow.

I've watched intercambio dancers change over frequently, and seamlessly, during songs as a performance, or 'show'. Great to watch, and to admire the skill, but it's a 'performance' for an audience.

I also note some women, and some couples, rarely males, doing that during a song. Usually stopping, having a brief discussion, and changing roles. Not good for the ronda!

My point is that I just don't see dual role as any kind of long-term 'solution' for a shortage of one role (and sometimes they're there, just not playing on either side). Sure, it 'fixes' the immediate problem.

 

[Brummbaer]

Another thing that no one admits and isn’t only about tango, is that women are comfortable being physically close with each other. While in the west it can be partly attributed to homophobia, I don’t think it is only that. In many parts of Asia and Latin America men will hold hands or touch each other, which in the west will be stigmatized as homosexual behavior. Yet Latin America is more homophobic that USA or Western Europe.

That's always weird! Strongly heterosexual men appear to regard any form of partner dancing (or good partner dancing from someone who takes dance lessons) as 'gay' homosexual behaviour, but that's where the women are! And the women want male partners to dance with them. Seriously, what's not to like (unless you're batting for the other side)? You can even go home without them! And I agree that there are now simpler options just to meet women.

Maybe it needs something just to promote partner dancing for men. Thinking more men's sheds** communities rather than something involving a performance with a pole.

**don't know if they have them elsewhere, and never attended, but seems to be a community for men to get together and talk about tools, cars, diy, etc. Just happens to be advertised at one milonga venue.

 

[brujo]

Maybe it needs something just to promote partner dancing for men. Thinking more men's sheds** communities rather than something involving a performance with a pole.

You joke but there are a few dance communities in my area that also pretty much are just dating scenes for polyamory. So it almost feels like if you want to have relationships with multiple people at a time one of the criterias is to learn to dance those styles. Those scenes almost never feel like they are missing dancers.

 

[Brummbaer]

You joke but there are a few dance communities in my area that also pretty much are just dating scenes for polyamory. So it almost feels like if you want to have relationships with multiple people at a time one of the criterias is to learn to dance those styles. Those scenes almost never feel like they are missing dancers.

Yes, I'm aware of those - and those looking for a longer term relationship. It's also a part of the question of where do you go out IRL - a meal out, hiking, theatre/cinema, travel... Always a difficult decision when everything is so expensive.

Nevertheless, there are groups of men just looking for companionship. I guess the gym provides that for some. Somehow can't see them at the zumba class...

OTH, the technical difficulties of learning AT certainly attracts one group when they discover it.

 

[brujo]

Nevertheless, there are groups of men just looking for companionship. I guess the gym provides that for some. Somehow can't see them at the zumba class...

For some the attraction is definitely the cultural element. At least a lot of the salsa / Cumbia folks I know come at it at that level. Programs like The Al Minns Next Generation Project for Black people in the United States or Rumba for Cubans. I knew some great dancers from LA that started out as part of a risk prevention program that taught them dance. But I wonder how you do this more broadly for the rest of American or European men?