The long-term solution is dual-role dancing?

[itwillhappen]

My point is that I just don't see dual role as any kind of long-term 'solution' for a shortage of one role (and sometimes they're there, just not playing on either side). Sure, it 'fixes' the immediate problem.

Over the last 50 years and longer, no one has found a general 'solution' for making social dancing more attractive to men, and the circumstances aren't really improving - I think we can give up the search and focus on personal 'fixes'.

For example, I recently participated in a gender-balanced marathon as a "counterweight", essentially paying back the last "debt" from my solo days. Meanwhile, my SO attended a workshop weekend with a double-role lady. So, a win-win-win-win situation. But I also think it's legitimate to strive for gender balance at individual events, to recreate the feeling of parties from our youth. You don't have to provide a fix for everyone and everything.

 

[Brummbaer]

Over the last 50 years and longer, no one has found a general 'solution' for making social dancing more attractive to men, and the circumstances aren't really improving - I think we can give up the search and focus on personal 'fixes'.

There are no 'general' fixes, but there are certainly some localised 'successes' with some groups who work really hard. The social and recreational world and culture continues to change, although the frequent criticism of some social AT groups as 'unfriendly' and aloof remains. The proposed solution seems to make it less friendly for many males, so it's hardly a 'solution' just a personal 'fix', and almost creates another, 'non-traditional', genre of the dance.

Time, of course, will show the real impact, rather than our comments, but I wouldn't rely on it as any solution.

 

[itwillhappen]

The proposed solution seems to make it less friendly for many males, so it's hardly a 'solution' just a personal 'fix', and almost creates another, 'non-traditional', genre of the dance.

Time, of course, will show the real impact, rather than our comments, but I wouldn't rely on it as any solution.

Exactly, what happens, happens; the milongas will somehow continue. It's simply a matter of assessing the situation personally and adjusting accordingly.

Double-role dancing isn't inherently unfriendly, quite the opposite. The crucial question is whether it's an attractive environment for male beginners. It's a voluntary leisure activity, no amount of moralizing, accusations of cowardice, or emphasis on presumed learning advantages will help. I've also often read that double-rolers look for followers or other double-rolers for workshops, while simultaneously seeking an (implicitly male) leader for event registrations. This can obviously only work to a limited extent in the long run.

A crucial question, as Melina Sedó wrote years ago, is how women in couples will position themselves. I think I'm seeing a trend towards a kind of double-role in gender balance. Our private workshop group is structured that way, most private milongas are too; and for encuentros/marathons, the paths might diverge.

Finally either enough active men will transition from classes to milongas, or tango will more or less become part of the ranks of more feminine leisure activities like line dance, yoga, and pottery.

 

[Bailango]

Finally either enough active men will transition from classes to milongas, or tango will more or less become part of the ranks of more feminine leisure activities like line dance, yoga, and pottery.

I was thinking more like a knitting club. Pottery I think is still a male dominated activity when viewed globally. None of the ever other activities had more male engagement.

There are more people (and men) in Asia and Africa. My point being if it ever becomes an activity in which men don’t participate, that will be a niche locale specific outcome. It might not reflect anything International.

An example reflecting that I can think of is soccer (football). Internationally it is a men’s game (despite women’s soccer existence). However long before women’s soccer became popular, in the USA it was seen as women’s sports. More American women had played soccer at high school and later than men. Which was opposite of the rest of the world.

Whether dual-role becomes popular or not, there will always be space for those wanting the partner dancing to reflect more traditional roles. Despite all you write and trying to convince that dual role is inevitable, it is always about women leading. What percentage of men are in to following at milongas? The women leading, it appears is growing (by your account) because of frustration at lack of dance opportunities. Not because people really want to dance dual role. I said ‘dance’ and didn’t say ‘learn’. Men are inclined to learn opposite role as a follower but don’t dance it. I started learning followers role in my beginning days and still can switch during the class or workshop when there is gender imbalance. Or the class is boring as a leader.

 

[itwillhappen]

Whether dual-role becomes popular or not, there will always be space for those wanting the partner dancing to reflect more traditional roles.

I think so too! However, a certain amount of moral pressure (here) cannot be completely ruled out in the future.
Regarding events, the question arises as to what extent a division will occur. There are already (here) some with traditional role and others with dual-role orientation.

Despite all you write and trying to convince that dual role is inevitable, it is always about women leading. What percentage of men are in to following at milongas?

I would estimate that the percentage of men who can truly follow proficiently is 1-5(?)%, depending on the context, and none of the straight follows exclusively.

A few years ago, it would have looked strange for a man to follow. But these days, we do a lot of things out of boredom, simply because we have the time and money, and also because we want to stand out from the crowd. There hasn't been a "next big thing" in tango for 20 years, like there was with Nuevo and Milonguero style. Except for double-role dancing.

My partner and I are currently taking a beginner's course with reversed roles, and she also leads me for a few minutes at milongas, more badly than well, of course.
I would estimate that around 5-10(?)% of couples who have been dancing together for many years occasionally switch roles these days, even at milongas.

 

[brujo]

I would estimate that the percentage of men who can truly follow proficiently is 1-5(?)%, depending on the context, and none of the straight follows exclusively.

A gentleman I know who helps in the Queer tango events has an extensive west coast swing background. I suspect as more and more of the other dances become more dual role, the number of men who follow will also increase as they come into tango.

Most of the people in the college tango group in town learn dual role and to them it’s super natural to come leading and following as beginners regardless of gender.

 

[Miradamiranda]

I don’t mind using the words man or woman for the roles because that’s simply how our society has seen things for a long time. I think using leader and follower can sometimes be more misleading in how it’s interpreted. I use those terms also. It’s not till there’s an actual discussion about subtlety in interpretation that I’d bring up terms like inviting the follower or proposing a move.

If I’m in a class as a leader, my maestro might say ‘guys, stand on this side of the room for a drill… sorry, I mean leaders’ when he notices I’m there. Around ‘them here parts’ the term ‘guys’ does not apply to any gender Ike in the north. ‘Y’all’ would be the alternative.

 

[brujo]

I don’t mind using the words man or woman for the roles because that’s simply how our society has seen things for a long time. I think using leader and follower can sometimes be more misleading in how it’s interpreted. I use those terms also.

It definitely feels heavily area and generation specific. Where I grew up in a heavily Catholic country the idea of a man following in dance would feel absurd and sinful/ wrong. But the very long time ideas can often feel challenged. There are a few amazing leads that I know that have changed their genders and have become women. But when they dance, they only lead. Does that mean that they are lesser women because they don’t follow? Obviously not.

 

[Brummbaer]

It definitely feels heavily area and generation specific. Where I grew up in a heavily Catholic country...

But then we get back to how men learned to lead, and women to follow in the late 19th/early 20th century in Argentina (often regarded as a 'Catholic' country). Perhaps it was the freedom of the emigré? And, of course, in their home countries with the dances of the era - noting that many of them were not 'partner' dances as we now tend to accept them. It took the Ländler, and other so-called german dances, as the predecessor of formal Vals (waltz) to change the embrace with the man's hand around the lady's waist. Outrage at the time - and in a Catholic country!

I tend to think it's more in the male mind (the insecure(?) guys at the bar ogling the girls on the dancefloor but afraid to participate, maybe stereotypes from TV dance shows, or maybe the 'supporting' narrative from that AT image of guys dancing in the sea) that any male dancing is 'gay'. But back then it was a means (show you're a good dancer) to an end (get the girl).

I don't see any issue with male or female lead/follow, just that, to me, it fits together better for a traditional partner dance as male 'lead' and female 'follow'. Anything else is a lesser compromise, or fix, for the immediate dance situation - and certainly no assistance to recruiting males to dance.

 

[brujo]

I tend to think it's more in the male mind (the insecure(?) guys at the bar ogling the girls on the dancefloor but afraid to participate, maybe stereotypes from TV dance shows, or maybe the 'supporting' narrative from that AT image of guys dancing in the sea) that any male dancing is 'gay'. But back then it was a means (show you're a good dancer) to an end (get the girl).

In American culture at least you also see dance and theater as something that is heavily targeted as a female after school activity where sports or things like Brazilian Jujitsu are more of what boys would do. It’s permissible to discover your love for music in being part of a band but being a dancer is very drag queen unless it’s breakdancing.

 

[Brummbaer]

In American culture at least you also see dance and theater as something that is heavily targeted as a female after school activity where sports or things like Brazilian Jujitsu are more of what boys would do

I think we sometimes witness that on our screens!

Nevertheless, don't object, or try to overcome, apparent sex/gender-based preferences for particular activities. Certainly don't prohibit them. It's far less polarised than it was.

 

[opendoor]

In American culture at least you also see dance and theater as something that is heavily targeted as a female after school activity where sports or things like Brazilian Jujitsu are more of what boys would do..

I don't think it has anything to do with culture! Dance and theater are simply more difficult than sports and martial arts. (I did karate as a teenager.) Society and culture simply compensated in public for the boys' shortcomings. But that's over. Back then, boys took science in secondary school and girls took French. Nowadays, it's mainly girls who take STEM subjects in school, and the boys are totally failing.

 

[Brummbaer]

I don't think it has anything to do with culture! Dance and theater are simply more difficult than sports and martial arts. (I did karate as a teenager.) Society and culture simply compensated in public for the boys' shortcomings. But that's over. Back then, boys took science in secondary school and girls took French. Nowadays, it's mainly girls who take STEM subjects in school, and the boys are totally failing.

No. Culture and peer-pressure also play a significant role. 'Back then' (1950-1970) I was at a single-sex boys school. We did French, German, Latin, history, geography, art - sciences and maths. Spanish was also introduced later. There were also theatre productions - with some of the boys as female characters. The separate girls school had a similar syllabus - except for sports.

At university, half of my intake (maths & physics) were female. Maybe I was unusual in that many of my equally high-performing classmates were female (those of us who got a 1st).

Certainly, in the world of work, most of my UK colleagues were male, with some outstanding female engineers - and nerds. In Europe more, including senior managers, were female (and certainly better than UK management).

I agree that many boys nowadays taking STEM subjects are totally failing. But we can also throw in ethnicity and parent pressure. It's complex; culture, aspiration, and home environment also play significant parts - especially doing 'manly' things.

 

[tangoing]

I don't think it has anything to do with culture! Dance and theater are simply more difficult than sports and martial arts. (I did karate as a teenager.) Society and culture simply compensated in public for the boys' shortcomings. But that's over. Back then, boys took science in secondary school and girls took French. Nowadays, it's mainly girls who take STEM subjects in school, and the boys are totally failing.

depends on the type of dance and theater and the type of sport and martial art.
A generalized dance/movement class is easy, whereas ballet is very difficult.
Running can be pretty simple, whereas brazilian ju jitsu is the chess/tango equivalent of martial arts with how technical it is.

 

[itwillhappen]

A gentleman I know who helps in the Queer tango events has an extensive west coast swing background. I suspect as more and more of the other dances become more dual role, the number of men who follow will also increase as they come into tango.

Most of the people in the college tango group in town learn dual role and to them it’s super natural to come leading and following as beginners regardless of gender.

At least in Germany, queer tango has existed as long as modern tango. [Queer Tango – Wikipedia]
But that subculture, with that name, has never really mattered to the mainstream; I think the term "queer" has a similar marketing appeal to the mainstream as "LGBT+". But this scene can, of course, integrate better into double-role events because heteronormative role models don't fit per se.

One indicator of the double-role evolution is Melina Sedo's "Pequena" encuentro. That was originally gender-balanced, then role-balanced, then with a 15% double-role quota, and now she flags a 25% double-role quota. (In fact this contradicts her announcement that she would no longer set an upper limit for double-role participants starting this year.)
You can see her effort to integrate a new customer group without alienating the existing customer group, especially heteronormative couples at such encuentros. The future will show whether the perception of what a "balanced" tango event looks like is actually slowly shifting.