The long-term solution is dual-role dancing?

[JournalInTime]

Whether someone gives subtle ownership vibes….

Sometimes the vibes aren't subtle at all, but overwhelming and horrible. More than a few couples here seem to be "macho guy, and 'his' woman." The usual dynamic is that he can dance with whomever he wants while she dances only with him unless he deigns to give permission to another man. Not good. Not good at all.

For my own case, I really think I get more dances than many other women at my exact same skill level because I show up alone. I’m approachable. Guys don’t have to worry about perceived overstepping. Maybe some are looking for A partner but find a dance partner and friend instead.

I confess to inviting lone women more often than unknown partnered women not because I'm looking for more than a dance (I'm happily in a couple, and dance strictly for the sake of dancing), but because of the dynamic in my first paragraph: I prefer to avoid the potential emotional and social stress of learning "the hard way" which couples are unhealthy and possessive. I invite known partnered women very slightly less often than lone women, but that's simply because they do have a partner and so are guaranteed to dance where lone women are not.

 

[tangoing]

Story about the lady not returning cabaceo and then telling your wife you never ask is very believable. Half the ladies are unaware of a man trying to cabaceo. As I have repeatedly said many times, I have to bring to attention of my female friends that a man is trying to cabaceo or was. Then they express surprise. If they were trying to avoid they would tell me so. More than a few times a female friend has told me that a certain lady wants to dance with me.

this is honestly one of my biggest pet peeves in the dance when combined with women saying something along the lines of “the cabeceo is working as intended, she just doesn’t want to dance with you”, when at least in nyc, the vast majority of the women aren’t looking for cabeceos unless it’s super obvious a few feet in front of them.

 

[TTanguero]

The discussion started and was pertaining to men showing up with a partner to milongas

My personal experience is that it makes no difference at all.

My first years in tango, although my partner didn't dance anything like as much as me, it was well known that I was in a relationship with a tanguera. After that ended, there was a significant period of time in which I would frequently go to milongas and festivals with the same female friend, and many people assumed we were in a relationship (an impression neither of us did anything to correct as we weren't looking for relationships and saw it as avoiding potential complications). Finally, she and I developed preferences for different places, and so now I either go alone or with a wide range of different friends.

Throughout these periods, I've noticed no difference whatsoever in who I dance with or how often.

 

[itwillhappen]

Dear Diary,

learning the "other role" is going well. My girlfriend has a talent for leading, and since leading is initially more difficult than following, I don't have much trouble keeping up. We switch during our daily tanda and private dances, and in the long run, it's an excellent training opportunity.

I haven't heard a woman say in ages that she only wants to learn to lead in class to improve her following. I'm not learning to follow to improve my leading either, but because role reversal is, in many situations, the hallmark of progressive, open-minded couples. It's like it's described from the early days of the tango boom: you kind of flounder around without much of a plan, skill, or consideration for others, so what? There's no such thing as "milonga-ready", but I haven't followed other women yet either.

I doubt whether this is an attractive role model for male beginners, especially since they won't be able to keep up with talented, experienced, and well-connected women for years to come. But if it's not the case, then that's a problem for female beginners. And even then, only if they strive to dance with men.

 

[brujo]

I doubt whether this is an attractive role model for male beginners, especially since they won't be able to keep up with talented, experienced, and well-connected women for years to come. But if it's not the case, then that's a problem for female beginners. And even then, only if they strive to dance with men.

In my experience the women who lead are a lot more forgiving of beginner men follows than the men who only lead. In practicas they tend to explain things you’re not doing right in following a bit more clearer and often have a ton of fun drills and exercises or visualizations they share from their own learning.

In some classes where there are more leads than follows ( since more women are taking the class as leads ), it also takes off a lot of pressure for a beginner guy to just follow instead of leading. Specially when it comes to stuff that requires a bit more understanding like in musicality classes. I definitively see more beginner men following, specially those with backgrounds in other dances. Even a teacher from Argentina said that now the role reversals are expected as part of the classes whereas maybe five or ten years ago it wasn’t.

 

[pianistamediano]

Saw another Facebook post (reel) popping up, shared by some of my tango friends. It's about the perennial issue of older women not dancing as much as younger/more attractive women, and honestly I find the responses mostly hilarious.

First:
No one so far has called out male tango teachers and performers for preferring to partner with young, attractive dancers.
Second:
Where were and are all these older, skilled, experienced women — who are supposedly amazing dancers — when so many male beginners, old and young alike, were and are struggling to get dances? I see this pattern almost everywhere.

I find it harder to be sympathetic when I've had to go through the same thing (not getting as many dances as I want) as a beginner. They can't recognise reality as it actually is. Most of the followers agreeing with him in the comments are essentially competing for a limited subset of "good" leaders, who can themselves be more selective because they are more in demand. Why should their preferences be respected and prioritised over those of the leaders they're trying to dance with?

It's a pairing problem without a numerical solution.

 

[Rabbit]

Where were and are all these older, skilled, experienced women — who are supposedly amazing dancers — when so many male beginners, old and young alike, were and are struggling to get dances? I see this pattern almost everywhere.

1) Dance skills are definitely one area where there are a lot of things people don't even know that they don't know.

2) It's socially acceptable for women to publicly complain, less so for men

3) A lot of the discourse surrounding cabeceo is hypocritical, people want to be able to set a high threshold to accept others, while at the same time expecting others to have a low threshold for accepting them.

 

[brujo]

Saw this post that heavily resonated with my experience with tango.

Hay ambientes donde el tango no crece.
No porque falte gente con ganas de aprender.
No porque falte música, ni espacio, ni tiempo.
Crece poco porque los que saben un poco, cuidan mucho ese poco.
Le tienen más miedo a la competencia que amor al tango.
Y eso se nota. En cómo reciben a alguien nuevo. En cómo lo ignoran. En cómo el ambiente se cierra sobre sí mismo y se llama a sí mismo comunidad.
Una comunidad que no puede incorporar no es comunidad. Es un club privado con milonga los sábados.

( translation, yes, AI assisted —- forgive me )

There are environments where tango just doesn't grow.
Not for a lack of people eager to learn.
Not for a lack of music, space, or time.
It fails to grow because those who know a little, guard that little bit fiercely.
They fear competition more than they love tango.
And you can tell. In how they welcome a newcomer. In how they ignore them. In how the scene closes in on itself while still calling itself a "community."
A community that cannot integrate others isn't a community. It’s just a private club with a milonga on Saturdays.

 

[pianistamediano]

A lot of the discourse surrounding cabeceo is hypocritical, people want to be able to set a high threshold to accept others, while at the same time expecting others to have a low threshold for accepting them.

Got it in one. Though not just cabeceo, everything in general. Rules for thee, not for me, et cetera. Long live double standards!

 

[opendoor]

Where were and are all these older, skilled, experienced women — who are supposedly amazing dancers — when so many male beginners, old and young alike, were and are struggling to get dances? I see this pattern almost everywhere..

Does anyone else have the impression that there are currently more men than women attending milongas?

 

[itwillhappen]

In some classes where there are more leads than follows ( since more women are taking the class as leads ), it also takes off a lot of pressure for a beginner guy to just follow instead of leading. Specially when it comes to stuff that requires a bit more understanding like in musicality classes. I definitively see more beginner men following, specially those with backgrounds in other dances.

If the overall concept in your community is attractive to men, resulting in more men effectively starting tango, then everything is perfect!

 

[itwillhappen]

Where were and are all these older, skilled, experienced women — who are supposedly amazing dancers — when so many male beginners, old and young alike, were and are struggling to get dances? I see this pattern almost everywhere.

From a personal point of view, I think that would mostly not be a satisfactory strategy, since ten years later less than 5%(?) will still be dancing.

I find it harder to be sympathetic when I've had to go through the same thing (not getting as many dances as I want) as a beginner. They can't recognise reality as it actually is. Most of the followers agreeing with him in the comments are essentially competing for a limited subset of "good" leaders, who can themselves be more selective because they are more in demand. Why should their preferences be respected and prioritised over those of the leaders they're trying to dance with?

There is often a lack of understanding that in voluntary leisure activities, the positive aspects clearly outweigh the negative for everyone, and everything is balanced overall; in the medium term, one has the dance partners one deserves. (But life itself is of course not "fair".)

It's a pairing problem without a numerical solution.

Exactly. My life partner is six years younger than me, and my dance partners are often (only) 5-10 years younger. That's how I was socialized, and nothing will change that in this lifetime. Therefore, the structural imbalance caused by the different appeal of dancing to women and men will, in the long run, significantly worsen for women, because when they're 70+, many men 5-10 years older will simply be too old to dance. Why complain about something that's inevitable and that you've had decades to prepare for?

 

[pianistamediano]

There is often a lack of understanding that in voluntary leisure activities, the positive aspects clearly outweigh the negative for everyone, and everything is balanced overall; in the medium term, one has the dance partners one deserves. (But life itself is of course not "fair".)

One supposes that mature people would, by definition, understand and accept the unfairness of life, and not waste too much time grumbling and griping about it.

Therefore, the structural imbalance caused by the different appeal of dancing to women and men...

Come to think of it, they're complaining about something that they're directly undermining — maybe undermining is too strong a word, let's use a euphemism and say that they're going around — said structural imbalance and instead of alleviating it, they're working towards minimising it (as a cause of not getting enough dances) with the double role initiative.

Problem is, as evidenced by the reel and comments, it's not doing nearly enough, despite all the anecdotes about how women leaders are their favourites, and surge in double-role events over the years.

So, how these issues going to be reconciled?

 

[Brummbaer]

So, how these issues going to be reconciled?

A solution to the problem of more modern times of encouraging males to participate in partner dance - without drugs or aspersions on their sexuality (in any direction)?

Neither female dual-role, nor media shows with too much spandex and Z-list slebs, are going to achieve that.

 

[pianistamediano]

Neither female dual-role, nor media shows with too much spandex and Z-list slebs, are going to achieve that.

Indeed.

Even if we somehow come up with a solution that encourages a significant number of males to participate in social dance, they're still going to be faced with tango's steep learning curve, a dearth of partners... and it certainly doesn't help when they realise so many followers only want to dance with a smaller subset of leaders!

Really, it makes me chuckle when I realised that all those followers with double standards, who complain about not getting enough dances, are just making the situation worse (or at least maintaining its current relative untenability).

It's not fun for a leader to hear that they're not getting enough dances when he's being ignored by the same followers.