The long-term solution is dual-role dancing?

[Brummbaer]

I don’t know about other scenes but the lack of beginner men makes learning pretty brutal when I started. All the women you know in the classes get to dance with men that are ten or twenty years into tango at milongas and practicas and will rip your dance apart.

Guess we were lucky with our initial classes, and as a couple with dance experience elsewhere. Funnily we were usually equally matched followers and leaders in most classes backthen, but we started changing partners from the start. Initial teaching, whilst considered 'good' in a traditional tango sense, wasn't helpful, so we took some lessons from a local ballroom dance teacher who did understand. We came across others in the class, after teachers changed, who had done the same. And those we started with are still dancing!

I'm grateful to those female followers in the classes who helped me (and male leaders for my wife). Private lessons made a massive difference. Still dance with those people who helped when we come across them.

I know about those who 'rip your dance apart'. Did a seminar early on and, as usual, many things start from the cross. One beginner (we were more novice by then) insisted that you had to do the cross via the 8CB. We'd just done it by walking. I've had others who have insisted on the complete sequence (including some sequence to get to the cross, say) rather than the key aspect. And then only that sequence, without any variation

They’re super polite about it, but it’s super obvious when the advanced dancers ignore your cabeceo or all the sudden have to change shoes after one song with you.

Yeah, that happens. Again, maybe we were lucky with those who 'paid forward'. Alternatively it might be a reflection on your partnership. Seek advice from a 'professional'.

I think as a guy that wants to stick it out in tango you can’t get away with not following unless you’re bringing a partner to class. There are just too many leads.

Nowadays bringing some dance partner is usually highly recommended at some group lessons. Others elsewhere manage. There's an optimum number. Strangely we tended towards too many followers and insufficient leads. A solution here (UK), when partnered, is the 'bus stop' (had to explain this to an Argentinian). Surplus members of the class wait at a corner, or similar point. When you pass by after one circuit, you drop your partner and pick up the first one waiting.

 

[Rabbit]

All the women you know in the classes get to dance with men that are ten or twenty years into tango at milongas and practicas and will rip your dance apart. Not maliciously I’m sure, but I definitively had people I was learning with angrily criticize things from technique to bringing in elements from other dance, and even from asking verbally to dance.

Tbh here the followers complain about leaders trying to teach stuff that they (leaders) don't really understand.

Unlike some of the other scenes, the gender ratio is relatively balanced though, unless there is a special event, which always attracts more followers for some reason. I would say it is quite competitive for both leaders and followers.

 

[MediocresAires]

I await some answers, but I'll give my perspective from the time I was a beginner (and dancing with my wife - still am). It was scary. You don't know much. You have no confidence. You've probably (in retrospect) gone to a milonga too early (but that's another complex discussion which has featured in other threads). It's another culture. Perhaps, most of all, you watch some 'advanced' follower, and you're thinking that's like taking an expensive, high-performance, sports car out into traffic in central Paris, or Italy. Or a thoroughbred race horse for a little outing. Ignoring any 'sexual' aspects! And that's from a perspective of having danced, in another discipline, for 40 years.

Thanks for your perspective! May I ask what made the followers look advanced to you?

When I started leading, I realized that a lot of the followers who look advanced on the floor are actually not that nice to dance with. There are followers who look amazing from the outside, but in the embrace they feel bad. Or they backlead constantly. They have to adorn every movement with no regards to the music or the lead. Sometimes they are objectively a good dancer, but personally it's not a fit, maybe because of height differences, different interpretation of the music etc.

There is one guy in my class who has the most amazing embrace. Dancing with him is like walking on clouds. He only has been dancing for a few months, but it's obvious that he has tremendous talent. He is too afraid to go to milongas! Which is too bad because I'd much rather dance with him then with many of the supposedly "advanced" leaders.

Recently I talked to a teacher who told me that she prefers to dance with beginner leaders over intermediate ones because the intermediate ones get worse after too many classes. It takes a long while for them, and then they become more pleasant dance partners again. This is also my experience. Beginner or early intermediate leaders who have a pleasant embrace and "only walk" musically can be amazing to dance with. I'll take them any time over intermediate dancers who have learned too many figures and have no idea how to lead or use them properly.

So I think that categories like "advanced" and "beginner" are not always helpful in tango. Sometimes an "advanced"-"beginner" combo can work amazingly well, much better than two dancers at the "same" level, whatever that's supposed to mean.

 

[MediocresAires]

I don’t know about other scenes but the lack of beginner men makes learning pretty brutal when I started. All the women you know in the classes get to dance with men that are ten or twenty years into tango at milongas and practicas and will rip your dance apart. Not maliciously I’m sure, but I definitively had people I was learning with angrily criticize things from technique to bringing in elements from other dance, and even from asking verbally to dance. There is only one other guy that stuck around from my very first beginner’s class and that’s because his wife loves it. In the new beginner class I’m taking as a follow - it’s a yearly cycle, we started the year with maybe 50 people and I’d say there are three guys remaining with about 10-12 new women with the rest of the class being advanced follows leading. All the guys that remain have previous dance experience in other dances, all of us follow at least in class.

When the feedback you get frequently from beginner dancers is about your lack of vocabulary, musicality and connection, it is hard not to put the more advanced dancers into this weird little mental pedestal. Specially when during practices and whatnot they will point out things you weren’t even aware were actual issues in dance. Like wtf what do you mean my left leg feels heavier than my right when I weight transfer?!

Wow, that sounds like a very toxic culture. No wonder the men don't stick around.

The fact alone that someone has danced for a long time doesn't make them a good dancer. I had awful tandas with leaders who danced "since before I was born" (so they told me). Especially in follower-heavy communities there are some leaders who stopped learning after 1 year and have been dancing badly ever since, just because they can. Veronica Toumanova also expands on this in her article.

One of my teachers discourages students from giving each other unsolicited corrections in class. And I agree with him. I would describe myself as an intermediate leader, but I still lead in beginner classes to work on my basics. The amount of "corrections" I get there from beginner followers, who can barely walk straight for 3 steps without falling over, is much higher than in intermediate classes. Beginner followers feel that something is wrong and their immediate reaction is "the leader did something wrong" when in 90% of the cases it's them not following what was lead, or wobbling around because they have no balance. Also, how are you supposed to give corrections for a role that you know nothing about? There is a reason why teachers have to master both roles.

I think a hallmark of an advanced dancer is knowing that it takes 2 to tango (lol). So usually when something is not working, both sides can contribute to making it better. Therefore I like the teachers most who dance with both students and give them individual corrections.

 

[Bailango]

I can certainly confirm his key personal experience:

For anyone who is slightly attentive, whether follower or leader - this dynamic is as clear as a day light.

His blog is well written. I disagree with the following section:

They bring discipline, consideration, and an embodied understanding of the follower’s experience that most male leaders took years to approximate, if they got there at all…

In theory this sounds right. In practice, despite that the followers who take to leading and do get good at it take at least a year to two. My comparison is a good male leader. Whether it took that male leader year or two, or ten to getg there.

I have followed more than a dozen followers who want to lead at practicals over the years. They make the same mistakes that beginner make leaders make. I am not referring to those that have started trying out leading. I am talking about those that have been trying to lead for atleast 6 months. That includes some of the "instructors". If nothing else many can be seeing doing various degrees of arm leads.

Leading by women has become perhaps more popular now. Men following and women leading has always been there. Until before COVID I can say I only seen two or three women lead as well as good men leaders. Like I will go and compliment a man leader who is really good. I have done the same with women leaders who have I am impressed with.

Like men leads most of the women leads also get stuck in middling skill category. It might be different elsewhere, where maybe two dozen woman are leading at a milonga and 3-4 are good.

Three I important aspects he brings out more eloquently than I can articulate are but are always on back of my mind throught out this debate are:

Female leaders are not entering the market of leaders on equal terms with male ones. They are entering it with structural advantages that the theory doesn’t account for, and the community rarely discusses… because discussing them risks sounding like an argument against female leaders, which it isn’t. It’s an argument for honesty about what we’re actually observing.
The first advantage is relational. A woman who begins leading already has a network… friends, dance partners, followers she knows and who know her. She can invite them to dance with a familiarity that requires no proof of skill. She already understands the follower’s experience from the inside. The social infrastructure that a new male leader spends years building, she arrives with.

The second advantage is subtler and more powerful. She is less intimidating. A follower choosing between an unfamiliar male leader and an unfamiliar female one faces a different calculation in each case… different histories, different social dynamics, different physical considerations. The female leader starts with a lower threshold to clear in that respect. That is not a criticism. It is simply true, and it matters for what happens next.

These two advantages are very big when compared to even an established man leader. It is equivalent of jumping the queue and getting to the front, when it comes to getting dances. Established man leader doesn't imply a good or very good leader.

 

[Bailango]

I only can confirm this observation. Females in a leading role are generally so much more grounded, flexible, and at the same time more upright than their male colleagues. I cannot understand why Bailango hasn't noticed it yet.

I agree with the quote to which you responded. That goes towards the advantage that someone in Tango scene for a while already accrues even thought they are changing the role. That is not surprising but as the article states a woman follower views a woman leader from different lens than a male leader.

More grounded, flexible and upright in strictly the dance context as leaders is where I would disagree. However I will note that in general far more woman dancers have upright posture compared to male dancers. I don't know why upper body postures among some men is visible as they hunch, bend, lean in, etc. Either it is bad habit or it is physiology for them. Women who convert to leading have already been dancing as followers. A few followers that I can recall having a lean or bend is because of their physiological bone structure. Where I find many woman followers lacking is in disassociation and slower movement to response.

 

[Bailango]

I'm really curious as to what factors might influence experiences here, as I haven't observed this effect at all – and from what I can see, I'm a less experienced dancer than he is.

I can confirm his observations. As I repeatedly state I am in a scene where there are more men than women. I do observe which men and women get their unfair share of dances. Skill certainly isn't among top two reasons. Which is not surprising. I also happen to sit out tandas and just observe the dynamics around me.

As an aside, I find it annoying how many blog posts and social media posts are being written by AI, but that's just me being a grumpy writer ...

If AI has been used to express a core idea, then I don't mind it. Will the user lack skills to express themselves in writing by resorting to AI? Definitely. We will see many cognition skills take a back seat or not develop among generation that will be AI native. Like calculators lessen the number of people who can quickly calculate mentally at grocery store checkout, the AI will have worse impact on our cognition skills. It is a real debate whether AI will make us dumber as a race.

 

[Bailango]

Also, my experience is that after my first tanda in the evening as a leader, I get far less cabeceos from male leaders. I don't know why. But usually when I start leading, I have to dance the rest of the tandas with women because men stop inviting me for some reason.

I can tell you why. But remember there are more men at milongas than women where I am.

There is one set of woman who lead that I know. They are clear during which part of the night they are leading and when they will be following during the night.

There is another set that I don't know when they are in mood to follow and when to lead.

 

[itwillhappen]

I think as a guy that wants to stick it out in tango you can’t get away with not following unless you’re bringing a partner to class. There are just too many leads.

It is common here to sign up for dance classes as a couple. If one’s partner is unable to attend, one looks for a substitute. Partner rotation usually takes place towards the end of the lesson. Back when I was a beginner, there were only a few isolated pairs of women.
Every approach has its pros and cons, of course; for men like me, it provided the necessary "compensation for an attractiveness disadvantage" at that time.

There was a fitting comment from Mark Word on Facebook:

I think you are right that it will be a turn-off for some men, especially older men who first come to learn tango. Change is hard. But there are men and women in new classes who are learning to dance both roles. I am older than you, and I think what you and I are facing is a "feminization of tango," in which men are being left behind. But let me quickly add that this is not necessarily a good or bad thing. It's just reality. Women are tired of sitting on their hands at milongas, wishing for a milonga, especially with men who have poor technique and musicality and invest little time in getting better. I understand this is a change I cannot stop.

By now, I am also quite certain that we are witnessing the "feminization of tango". In Northern Europe, women's interest in tango is significantly greater than men's; consequently, women's needs carry considerably more weight than men's. Quite apart from the issue of equality, this makes sense from both a market-driven and a democratic perspective.

However, the interests of (opposite-sex) couples may differ, and in my opinion, they will also position themselves separately to a certain extent.

 

[Bailango]

I can tell you why. But remember there are more men at milongas than women where I am.

There is one set of woman who lead that I know. They are clear during which part of the night they are leading and when they will be following during the night.

There is another set that I don't know when they are in mood to follow and when to lead.

Cont...

A woman who leads may be a familiar face but when I don't know which role she prefers, I will refrain from asking. Because if I really want to dance a tanda, the cost of being turned down (because she prefers to lead) is no one else left to ask.

 

[Bailango]

If I see a woman leading in flat shoes and I haven't seen her following, then I would be wary of cabeceoing her as a follower, as I don't want to cause offense by making it seem like I assume she follows just because she's a woman. I do know at least two female leaders who only lead.

That's another key reason.

 

[Bailango]

Isn't that self evident? You've moved AT to being about the 'dance' more than a heterosexual social event.

Perhaps statement needs reframing. I go to milonga to dance. Not as a hetrosexual event, nor with a goal to meet women. But as I have repeatedly said at milonga I would prefer to dance with a woman. If I had to dance with a man, I would not attend milongas.

If my goal was to meet women or see it a hetrosexual social event, dancing is not necessary. I could go to milonga with primary aim to socialize with women. Dancing would be secondary or unimportant, or only an instrument that serves the purpose. There could be men (or women) who go to milonga for that very reason.

 

[Brummbaer]

May I ask what made the followers look advanced to you?

As we've progressed my perspective has changed! Back then, when you're at the bottom and know very little, everyone dancing at a milonga looks better and 'advanced'. To a very limited extent we knew walking, side steps, cunita, cross, fwd & bed ocho, giro, and ocho cortado. Not well! And not well executed! Sufficient to get around. Sufficient to string together (a useful recommendation had been to regard the dance around the ronda as a 'string of pearls' - walk and put in an occasional 'pearl'). We had also learned a little of abrazo - 'close' versus 'open'. Despite experience of dancing previously with different women (and my wife with different men), 'close' hold with many different women was, then 'perturbing' as a male. Also, early on, I'd had a 'revelation' about leading! Back ochos, I think. I could walk with a follower, and then, if I moved my upper body correctly, I could lead back ochos, and get out of them!

'Advanced' (as distinct from 'professional' teachers, maestros) could dance effortlessly and smoothly. Followers added adornos. There was intricate leg 'knitting', ganchos and leg wraps. Followers usually looked and dressed the part. PYTs were usually underdressed in comparison but could perform intricate, complex moves - which I had no idea how to lead. Invitations were still a bit of a mystery. Obviously many were invited verbally and knew their dance partners. It was a social scene. There was some cabeceo/mirada. Was I doing it correctly, or just being ignored? We knew enough of the structure to know of vals and milonga, but avoided them at that time. 'Advanced' followers could dance those as well! It looked good.

We were lucky. Our first milonga (not where we took lessons) was friendly and welcoming. People talked to us. We were invited to dance (me too!). And then we found the same people at other milongas. We also started to find that some were not as 'advanced' as we thought. Some had a limited set of elements and their 'routine'. Others couldn't lead that well. Some followers just wanted a support for adornos.

And then there were, sometimes, the 'sexual' politics. Dual-role wasn't new. I'd previously, sometimes, danced the 'lady's' steps. My wife's previous 'coach' was gay. But then we had the lesbian couple (one in 'male' suit; one in very 'female' dress). Also the female leader. Dressed the part, and occasionally turning up with a few younger, very well dressed, younger women (PYTs), who only really danced with her - they didn't respond well to invites from ('advanced' male leaders).

Where we started to learn took the view that after 2 years of learning to walk, then maybe(!) we could consider going to a milonga. We were fortunate that the teacher left and others took over. We also had the advantage of attending other tango group classes in other places (family circumstances meant we could be spending weeks in London with AT groups within walking easy distance).

So, from a 'beginner' perspective, the milonga was scary. I suppose we also visited 'practilogas' which were more relaxed.

So, years pass. We take private lessons. We do workshops (I used to ask in the early days whether we knew sufficient to do the workshop). We take courses. We go to prácticas. We take a few tango 'holidays'. We also look out where we could dance when we travel - so over the years have danced, and taken lessons, in many locations in different countries throughout Europe and further afield.

I'd say we were now forever 'intermediates'. There's still lots to learn. A dance partner is useful. As someone told us visiting a very 'elite' milonga (lots of teachers and a performance from some highly rated Argentinians): 'At least you'll be able to dance with each other'. They were correct there! A solo follower nearby got no invites all evening, not even from the table where she sat. (Many tandas were bring arranged in the drinks area!). Met her at another milonga the following day where she got many invites. And being a 'couple' at some milonga types, usually where unknown, is a disadvantage if you're objective is lots of dances with others. Acquaintances, who are regularly in BsAs, tell us they have to go separately to get dances.

Recently my wife and I were practicing some vals cadena at a práctica. I invited a novice follower to dance afterwards. She looked at me in horror and said: 'I can't do that!'. We had a good dance.

So I think that categories like "advanced" and "beginner" are not always helpful in tango. Sometimes an "advanced"-"beginner" combo can work amazingly well, much better than two dancers at the "same" level, whatever that's supposed to mean

Beginner, novice, intermediate, advanced... are more helpful than level 1, 2...6. They have some uses to teachers. Just don't measure it by elements you can perform (with a partner) or some certificated qualification.

 

[Brummbaer]

One of my teachers discourages students from giving each other unsolicited corrections in class.

In a workshop nowadays I may ask the follower how it worked. Did I lead it ok? I get useful feedback.

 

[MediocresAires]

In a workshop nowadays I may ask the follower how it worked. Did I lead it ok? I get useful feedback.

Yeah I do that too. But then it's not unsolicited