The long-term solution is dual-role dancing?

Miradamiranda said:
Sorry. Guilty as charged.
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Only the last in a line, and your comment wouldn't have made sense without the context. No-one is in trouble here, and I don't think anyone acted in bad faith. I'm not even sure the conversation would have been bad held in a non-dancer thread (but other mods might disagree). But it would almost certainly wreck this thread, and I did not have the heart to create a new thread with that content.
 
Today Melina Sedó reposted on facebook her more or less regular statement about double-role dancers.

I'm completely relaxed about it right now, of course I'll learn to follow while my girlfriend learns to lead. It's about how we behave internally as a couple, what we consider to be fair. (And I think it's absolutely fair when my girlfriend pleases me sometimes.)

What Melina deliberately overlooks is that a role balance usually only applies when it's an event that you have to register for and often travel to. In that case, everyone can decide freely whether they prefer a de facto gender balance. And the advantages of the latter for couples are obvious.

And female double-rolers also miss half the time for maintaining their relationship with male dance partners. Many people will be fine with that, but even then everyone can and must choose freely and deal with the consequences either way.

Melina Sedó

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam!
www.facebook.com www.facebook.com
 
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...true female double-role dancers do not have to be balanced with leaders, because they will balance themselves..
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Its all in the word "true". What do you call the large group of normal female double-role dancers? Submarines, perhaps?
 
itwillhappen said:
Today Melina Sedó reposted on facebook her more or less regular statement about double-role dancers.
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Methinks years on she remains seemingly permanently disgruntled by the way double-role dancers are still not fully accepted everywhere; meanwhile, my double-role friends (mostly women, two men (or male-presenting at least, in common parlance) are just dancing as they like and are generally satisfied with the way things are going. Is she not going to update her statement, seeing as things have actually become better?
 
itwillhappen said:
Today Melina Sedó reposted on facebook her more or less regular statement about double-role dancers.

I'm completely relaxed about it right now, of course I'll learn to follow while my girlfriend learns to lead. It's about how we behave internally as a couple, what we consider to be fair. (And I think it's absolutely fair when my girlfriend pleases me sometimes.)

What Melina deliberately overlooks is that a role balance usually only applies when it's an event that you have to register for and often travel to. In that case, everyone can decide freely whether they prefer a de facto gender balance. And the advantages of the latter for couples are obvious.

And female double-rolers also miss half the time for maintaining their relationship with male dance partners. Many people will be fine with that, but even then everyone can and must choose freely and deal with the consequences either way.
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Do you know what she's referring to from this excerpt in her post?
Speaking as a very experienced organiser who - even without double-rolers - always has to overbook men, because so many of them cannot be counted towards the role balance.
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pianistamediano said:
Methinks years on she remains seemingly permanently disgruntled by the way double-role dancers are still not fully accepted everywhere; meanwhile, my double-role friends (mostly women, two men (or male-presenting at least, in common parlance) are just dancing as they like and are generally satisfied with the way things are going. Is she not going to update her statement, seeing as things have actually become better?
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To be honest, I dont' see it as a big deal. Some people (mostly women, here, almost exclusively women) do it and some don't. And there isn't much more to say about it.
 
ArbeeNYC said:
To be honest, I dont' see it as a big deal. Some people (mostly women, here, almost exclusively women) do it and some don't. And there isn't much more to say about it.
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I share the same opinion — that it's nothing worth talking about. It's essentially become the new norm as far as I'm concerned, so I merely raise an eye when someone starts to go on about female leading, then get progressively more and more annoyed when they don't shut up and keep ranting.
 
I’ve seen situations where I’ve thought they should have overbooked men because although they are at the event, they are not working the room. They might be hovering around food, sitting with their wives who are not getting enough dances, socializing... BUT then, I’ve also observed that many of these women retire for the evening because their heels hurt or they get bored, and then their men continue to dance all night. Easiest if the event is at the hotel. Lots of assumptions here, but just last weekend I was observing and thinking this might be the case. So, for us solo ladies, the real fun on the dance floor picks up quite late.
 
pianistamediano said:
I assume she's referring to how men tend to want to dance less than women on average?
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I've been a couple of times to a festival which is theoretically role-balanced, but nothing like it in reality. The explanation in that case was couples where the woman wants to dance all weekend and the man is there under protest. I discovered this when the coffee station ran out and I went to the bar to get one – I found a table full of theoretical tangueros with an afternoon's worth of beer glasses on the table.
 
Theories:
  • I have seen cases where the women's list fills up in minutes, the men's list still has openings weeks or even months later. This would make a spot at the event more valuable for women, and less so for men. Maybe men don't value the event as much then, and are less committed about going.
  • I have noticed more women tend to show up early (like at the night before pre-event, and the first night's milonga), and there are more women at the final milonga. In the middle milongas it is more gender balanced. That I have seen, if someone shows up the 2nd day (often a Saturday) and leaves before the Sunday night milonga, it is more often a man. Maybe these men are missing out on the better things in life and are more likely to let work pull them away? Maybe if they miss Friday for work, they are more likely to give up on the entire weekend? Just one small data point, I am far more likely to miss Tango because of work than my dear wife (DW).
  • Speculation here: A leader who has been drinking too much is less able to lead, but a follower who has had too many can still follow -- maybe alcohol removes more leaders than followers from the pista?
 
TTanguero said:
I've been a couple of times to a festival which is theoretically role-balanced, but nothing like it in reality. The explanation in that case was couples where the woman wants to dance all weekend and the man is there under protest. I discovered this when the coffee station ran out and I went to the bar to get one – I found a table full of theoretical tangueros with an afternoon's worth of beer glasses on the table.
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I'm fast friends with one of them! His wife is crazy about tango, whereas he is less so — very much less so. Still, he makes the effort to learn and dance and go to events with her, once even booking every single workshop with a couple she admires.

Personally, I don't like the way she's insinuating that it's the fault of the men — you'd think she'd realise that most of the men who don't dance much, if at all, are obviously not that keen to be there in the first place. They've been persuaded to accompany their partners there.
 
tango.suenio said:
Do you know what she's referring to from this excerpt in her post?
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Years ago, she wrote in a post on her blog that 10% more men are necessary to create a balanced event regarding dancing.

At the same time, the actual behaviour of many organizers shows that up to 15% more women get "visually" tolerated by heteronormative participants in these days.

Both can be used to argue for double-rolers, but the arguments don't have anything to do with each other.
 
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