Exactly. This was my thought as well. Most instructors do not know how to manage a class when it comes to rotation.
The long-term solution is dual-role dancing?
- Thread starter itwillhappen
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Exactly. This was my thought as well. Most instructors do not know how to manage a class when it comes to rotation.
pianistamediano
Forum Master
Think harder!
Or at least the way we did it, for each exercise, everyone has half a song, a full song, maybe even two songs, for a role, and then they swap. Very few students were unhappy about switching roles, and there were so few exceptions that it worked for every class. What we saw more were couples dancing with each other exclusively throughout the classes.Your mileage will vary more and more as the age range increases, since older people tend to be a lot more resistant to ELEF compared to the young 'uns.
pianistamediano
Forum Master
Yeah, as a general rule, people are stupid and/or don't want to follow the established rules.
Honestly, at this point, it's way better to refocus with that major exercise as a pivot and think about it as a class within the class. What we did IIRC was to let people try it for a song, swap, and then have a minute or two to discuss what they thought about it, then each of them get to try it for longer.
Dancing to half a song or full song comes much later in the class. There is teaching of movement, breakdown of leader’s and follower’s foot steps (this is only where I see ELEF can easily swap), teaching moves without music, etc. Already 30-40 minutes of the class has passed.Think harder!
brujo
Well-Known Member
The one large difference is that swing is mostly open embrace. The local college does ELEF in their tango classes but they don’t do close embrace.
Feels a lot of the guards that people talk about for establishing distance in the close is from follow to lead, and it becomes a bit uncomfortable when the follow is the one that wants more contact than the lead. It is also often the case that you’re ok with closeness with the opposite sex but not your own or vice versa.
Feels a lot of the guards that people talk about for establishing distance in the close is from follow to lead, and it becomes a bit uncomfortable when the follow is the one that wants more contact than the lead. It is also often the case that you’re ok with closeness with the opposite sex but not your own or vice versa.
pianistamediano
Forum Master
I though that you don’t like rules imposed in tango
Milongas, my friend! If one doesn't listen to the teachers in a class that one chose to attend, well... at that point, a lobotomy would probably only improve their brain.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
Of course, this is primarily a signal to the sisterhood: "Look, I'm also learning to lead."Are you sure?
If my SO or a GF wanted to lead me at milonga, that would be very different. It would be less for dancing reasons. More to make her happy.
But my impression is that it also conveys the signal: "Look, we're a nice, modern tango couple."
I don't know for sure, but in any case, I can't detect any negative effects for myself.
It's physically different. That's certainly a significant factor. And, of course, for many that 'closeness' and private space varies with sex and culture. Which is why I see dual-role (beyond improving one's own skills) as a compromise in the situation and not a solution.
It certainly seems unlikely to encourage more males (a basic problem) into social AT.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
Tango as a social construct is inherently a collection of compromises. But I can't see my SO considering it a compromise to participate in a nice women's weekend with workshops, shared meals, and overnight stay. And at a milonga ... it will give her more freedom, then perhaps at some point it will be expected, then perhaps at some point it will be necessary; but none of us can see into the future.
If that's how it comes to pass, then I also see that as a serious problem. But yes, a problem precisely for the "generation" of women who then come to tango "unaccompanied". After all, it's no one else's responsibility to ensure a balanced gender ratio. And women with male partners can't be supportive and "share" because humans aren't a "resource" here that can be shared.
brujo
Well-Known Member
It’s a quality over quantity problem. The men who are ok with following other dudes are often less creepy. The local zouk scene here is like five to one women to men but that is what makes it attractive to some folks compared to scenes like salsa / bachata as they don’t have to deal with dudes that won’t stop groping or leave them alone.
pianistamediano
Forum Master
Funny you should mention zouk; over here, I did initially consider trying zouk, but then I saw videos of the teachers dancing and got a weird feeling from the male teacher; he didn't seem like a creep though, just made me feel uncomfortable. The female teacher does dance tango, and follows fine, if a bit stiff, but she leads in a way that's really reminiscent of Mundial-esque dancing; not quite the same, but still in a way that I personally dislike.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
Conversely, this implies that men who just want to lead women are, relatively seen, of less quality and more creepy. From a marketing perspective, this might be a problematic starting point. But for experienced tango dancers leaning against the bar and watching, all that is quite entertaining.
Every social construct, whatever you mean by that phrase, is a collection of compromises. Everything in life is about trade offs and compromises. So what
You bring up references to your SO so much that if your post doesn’t reference her, it is an exception
It seems like she is some type of specimen of social experiment you are keenly observing What’s new about women having women’s night or weekend out doing what they like doing ? Humans are social creatures. That’s what we do. Socialize around shared activities or common interests. Men can get together for golfing on the weekend or people who like running, biking, etc will arrange that followed by lunch or dinner. Yoga crowd will go for yoga retreat. Photographers arrange outings and out of town trips. People who like music will arrange overnight stays. Food and consuming it is common in all these activities.
My point is that you are forced co-relating what happens all the time everywhere, like it were an exception or new revelation.
Anecdotes aren’t good at proving a trend or pattern
To quote a mom of my friend (from when I was in early twenties), women have been historically comfortable in each others’ spaces. She was implying in a way that men never have been. That quote keeps coming back to me many times as I have observed interactions between women in different spaces, how it is portrayed in arts and culture (movies), and experienced first hand like you are narrating frequently.
But you can look into the past and parallels. Past is a prologue to the future.
Future is a speculation. There was a time when the emergence of Neuvo was justified (as to why it was gaining popularity and becoming a trend). Then in 2010s it decreased after its peak. The tango crowd gravitated towards more traditional format and preference. Suffice to say neuvo lost out. I don’t know what 1990s were.
Where is the future you are speculating? 5 years, 10 years, 50 years? I can safely bet that tango will be as it is today 10 years from now. 50 years? Who knows!
That’s an unproven blanket statement. It is like people online who say “show me your pic so I know you are not a creep”. Which is most illogical thing. Yet very common in online dating. How can you tell from pic that someone is not a creep.
You are confusing and conflating “machismo” with “creepiness”. Both are toxic.
Men who are successful in talking advantage ( of a women) are often crafty, charming, and highly aware which woman can be taken advantage of. They can sense which woman is vulnerable and which women is not worth their time because she is unlikely to fall prey. The rest who can’t succeed or inept at doing so are often the creeps. Because they make it so obvious what they are upto.
A lot of famous successful people had no idea what Epstein was upto and thought he was very smart, connected, etc.
in my experience, zouk for unknown reasons has always attracted women more than men. I know many men who don’t like zouk. I never did. Zouk women are always out there trying to get men from other dances into zouk and failing. I seen it go on for 15 years. They haven’t succeeded in convincing men from tango, salsa, and swing to into zouk. A few men trying it out doesn’t count.
I know female friends that rave about zouk and are surprised I don’t like it. I know male friends that also despise zouk.
P.S - not talking about Brazil where the zouk is popular. It is also a different dance there than what you see in Portland or Europe.
Of all social dances, zouk has the smallest community. It has been on the west coast since at least 2009.
How many told you that is what makes it attractive ?
Women that like zouk can’t stop talking about how the feel the connection that they can’t in other dances. “Connection” appears to be the primary reason that women say they like about zouk. That’s consistent over 15 years.