Isn’t that we all been saying for at least a year.
The long-term solution is dual-role dancing?
- Thread starter itwillhappen
- Start date
I am not sure what you mean by sanitized version. I would strongly prefer to lead women. No man has ever asked me to lead at a milonga. I have led man at practices and that is the line I draw. At practices or classes I have no issue leading a man or following one. It is unlikely a man would ask me to lead at a milonga.
Half of the regular followers are on my list that I don’t attempt to ask. I never needed to dance more tandas to get my tango high. A one or two really good tandas always made my night. I enjoy watching others dance if I am sitting.
So far I don’t see any danger of tango social dancing becoming a space where traditional roles diminish. If it ever comes to that point, I am sure there will be reaction where the milongas will emerge that cater to people wanting to dance in traditional roles. So there will always be a space (may be shrunk) that prefers traditional role dancing (which means I dance with a woman) which also maps to heteronormative preferences.
Btw if I were a follower or a woman, I wouldn’t dance with 70% of me (primary lack of hygiene). That woman are willing to dance with men who are not properly groomed is always a matter of amazement to me.
Yes. But the propoganda for this 'solution' (what is it solving?) keeps returning as the only possible way ahead, rather than addressing the bigger issues of getting more people interested in dancing AT, and expecially more males. The follow-on from that is getting appropriate teaching for them ('followers' and 'leaders'). Instead of which, it returns to the 'band-aid' dressing.
What is 'properly groomed' in social AT nowadays? Or are you just referring to personal hygiene (which wasn't really around in those 'traditional' days)? Does it involve after-shave (and a consequent vapour trail)?
Maybe it's case of 'take what you can get'? They're still alive and can dance.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
There are no relevant organizational structures in tango that could strive for a 'solution' and create 'propaganda' for it. Everything plays out on the level of personal opinions expressed by 'influencers', largely inconsequential opinions that naturally contradict each other in many ways. Therefore, something other than 'band-aid' has never existed in tango, and according to current knowledge, it will not in the near future.
The more relevant question is how one assesses their personal capabilities and options based on the given situation.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
Tango more or less quickly adapts to societal role expectations based on its participants and age distribution. And of course, as in other areas of life, there are also opposing movements. There's currently a discussion on Facebook about the enforcement of traditional roles in the milonga 'Cachirulo':
Code:
https://www.facebook.com/share/1Bvb63e1vz/
Tango Distance
Well-Known Member
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It has, however, been tried. Not too successfully since it requires buy-in (which is either herding cats or over-dominant personalities (e.g. would-be 'influencers', and/or those of the 'only true way).
UKATA in the UK. I've also come across extremely loose co-operation, at least in regions, around Spain, Australia, New Zealand (E&OE). Various personalities (writer of books on Tango, films, but moved on) have also tried to form organisations. You usually find them as zombie websites.
If anything, it's down to organisers and classes - but some have zero idea of marketing themselves, whilst other are good.
Got to laugh. There are more important issues. I don't care who dances with who, nor about 'tradition' in that sense. My view is simply that it's a band-aid and not helping anything apart from personalities within a limited group.
Can’t access the Facebook, but I don’t think it should be enforced. The people should be free to do what they wish.
If Milonga is for traditional roles (without enforcement or making it a rule):
- most attendees would be those that prefer that
- those wanting non-traditional roles will be unlikely to attend.
- assuming someone wants to dance in non-traditional role at such a milonga, they might find it challenging to find a willing partner
- the person who dances dual role, could choose to dance in traditional role.
I don’t think enforcing rules like makes sense. What’s next? You only dance with those in your age group ? We already have milongas that tend younger and those that tend older. And ones where all ages attend.
For places that have only one milonga a week or a month, I doubt they can afford to be choosey on who attends.
That is interesting. There are some who make a fuss about other 'traditions' (e.g. cabeceo/mirada) and who want that 'enforced' as part of the AT heritage. To an extent I agree with 'enforcement' where that's the culture of the locale; some tourists need to be 'managed' (a previous example was a woman inviting a man to dance). Elsewhere it's merely an evolutionary development. Somewhere there's a line - but it's not fixed. There are some milongas I avoid because I'm old and they tend 'young' with an emphasis on their re-discovered 'traditions' (although I hear one has become more relaxed as numbers matter).
Nevertheless the enforcement actions reportedly taken at that event seem truly awful. Objecting to the 'band-aid' and forcibly removing it doesn't help.
Doubtless further discussions in other threads about 'traditions'...
itwillhappen
Forum Master
I suspect that this milonga has a viable business model in its (today's) niche of a traditional role model. The host's behavior polarizes, invites provocation, and that's precisely the point for marketing purposes.
The women's(?) rights movement also seeks and needs the tension and release of such events for its internal cohesion, including that propaganda article enriched with agitational AI-generated images.
Is this perhaps fundamentally a win-win situation, a symbiosis?
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I don't think any thought of 'marketing' comes into it. Of course, those who have a tradition fetish can exploit it later. It was just abysmal behaviour in the face of what may have been provocative. IMHO both are equally bad, or poor taste, or however you wish to describe it, but that, unfortunately, is how society now seems to work in the days of influencers and AI.
Oh, that’s the original post. I stumbled upon the reply by the page of the milonga posting security cam videos of the incident to exonerate the host. The guy did interrupt their dance and ask them to stop/leave (there was no audio, so he could’ve been yelling?). There was a maybe a slight touch to tell them to stop, maybe could call it even a slight shove in the argument that followed, but it wasn’t a physical hit or really any extreme physical escalation. The fact that the post lied about this really diminishes the validity of everything tbh.
Also that milonga had a reputation for that so idk if those two women were just clueless / new? I feel like some skill of tango as whole is being able to socially navigate milongas and that includes knowing the vibe (traditional, cabeceo only?, general skill level etc).
That is a key point
The related problems are that some think all milongas are the same and modelled after their viewpoint of BsAs, or should be the same, and that there's no real teaching, or 'help', in navigating the differing offerings. That also goes that their perception of códigos is a universal set of commandments that every milonga must follow (or it's not a 'milonga' in their view). And I differentiate código from basic common sense about safety.
It is important to observe and understand the game in play when visiting a new milonga.
There was a thread about when to first visit a milonga. When we started there was just one local monthly milonga - where we attended. There was also an informal milonga/práctica after lessons for those who stayed (and better dancers also came). We were taught something about typical códigos. Someone also tried a really traditional milonga with separate seating and their formal códigos, etc. It didn't work well.
The next nearest milonga was 50km away. Fortunately really welcoming, friendly and sociable. I guess we were also acquainted with some attendees. So, we were sort of 'guided'. Since then we've been to many milongas, festivals, holidays, etc in several countries. Some I wouldn't darken the doors again; others I look forward to - even if it means travelling.
It's almost as if milongas need a star rating - like hotels or campsites. Not based only on their music or DJ, but 'tradition' (although I guess many would like to say 5* on that!), friendliness, facilities (tables?), seating, etc.
It amused me to see 'tables' where you can actually sit at some milongas whereas having a few to put your water, fan, and spectacles on is good, many I attend have none (no room - chairs along the wall).
Newbies, even intermediates and some 'advanced'** need to be taught how to navigate the different types.
**A visiting maestro from BsAs had to learn the concept of 'bus stop' when changing partners during their lesson. Also about 3 song tandas.
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