The long-term solution is dual-role dancing?

[tango.suenio]

I suspect that this milonga has a viable business model in its (today's) niche of a traditional role model. The host's behavior polarizes, invites provocation, and that's precisely the point for marketing purposes.
The women's(?) rights movement also seeks and needs the tension and release of such events for its internal cohesion, including that propaganda article enriched with agitational AI-generated images.
Is this perhaps fundamentally a win-win situation, a symbiosis?

Most aware comment I've read on the event across English and Spanish Facebook as well as this site.

I don't think any thought of 'marketing' comes into it. Of course, those who have a tradition fetish can exploit it later. It was just abysmal behaviour in the face of what may have been provocative. IMHO both are equally bad, or poor taste, or however you wish to describe it, but that, unfortunately, is how society now seems to work in the days of influencers and AI.

Marketing, or perception if you don't like that term, is 100% a factor here. Hence the host carrying around red and yellow cards to expel people. You'll note their use in the clips in question. Also, the manifesto posted due to the footage which makes bombastic claims about physical abuse and calling for an 'audit' of milonga organizers.

Everyone's playing their part.

To whatever degree dual-role dancing is a "solution", it will never be a total one so long as tango dancers can seek refuge in miongas such as Cachirulo.

 

[Brummbaer]

Marketing, or perception if you don't like that term, is 100% a factor here.

Yes, I suppose the lens through which you view these events is a factor. Who dances with who (in small numbers**) never seemed significant.

Hence the host carrying around red and yellow cards to expel people. You'll note their use in the clips in question. Also, the manifesto posted due to the footage which makes bombastic claims about physical abuse and calling for an 'audit' of milonga organizers.

Yeah, I looked at the posted security video.

To whatever degree dual-role dancing is a "solution", it will never be a total one so long as tango dancers can seek refuge in miongas such as Cachirulo.

**Hmm. This is where numbers come in! We have a 'gay' quarter/village - even towns with that reputation. We have 'Queer Tango'. And we have the rest of society - mostly, here, not offended by a few female leaders or male followers. (And I'm ignoring all the other societal divisions from politics through to ethnicity)

Not all milongas are the same. Should they be? If you can have a 'Queer Milonga', you can have some relic of some past with quaint rules for dinosaurs. I might not like those, but you might not like my preferred milongas. We also have other variants reflecting different areas of preference, like alternative music, or those where DJs prefer scratchy hidden gems, or those with modern recordings, we have dedicated rooms - some with sofas and comfortable seating, some bare village halls, infrequently as depicted in BsAs, or those that tend young (university areas), or old (halls, even grand halls or ballrooms which they can afford). 'Dual-role' is still a developing area, and still seems like a band-aid.

Sure, we rule against some discrimination where we consider, perhaps, some corruption or unnecessary bias to be present (e.g. clubs for certain occupations which exclude one sex).

So, maybe, if it isn't obvious, we do need some form of milonga classification. Is Cachirulo so significant there? Are there alternative venues available to dance as a same-sex couple?

An engineered provacative incident? Maybe - now tending towards possibly. Poorly handled? Certainly. Impact (beyond words on the internet) within the locale's culture?

 

[itwillhappen]

An engineered provacative incident? Maybe - now tending towards possibly. Poorly handled? Certainly. Impact (beyond words on the internet) within the locale's culture?

I once went to an encuentro where, after being asked on-site, the organizer didn't want leading women. These days we consider that unfair, so it festered for a while, and on the last day the double-rollers just ignored it. What could possibly happen to them? I don't know what it's like there now; I didn't come back the following years.

What are the chances that an 88-year-old geezer could physically force two young women to something?
After all, I don't believe that this was planned in advance at Cachirulo. But it is interesting, once again, how intense and emotional the reactions are.

 

[Brummbaer]

I once went to an encuentro where, after being asked on-site, the organizer didn't want leading women. These days we consider that unfair, so it festered for a while, and on the last day the double-rollers just ignored it.

To some extent I'd accept their milonga; their rules. But probably not where I'd choose to go if you have to make rules like that.

What are the chances that an 88-year-old geezer could physically force two young women to something?

Have you seen what appears to be security footage? The description was over-exagerated. The reaction was, euphemistically, poorly managed.

After all, I don't believe that this was planned in advance at Cachirulo. But it is interesting, once again, how intense and emotional the reactions are.

Well, their rules are, apparently, readily available in multiple languages - and it has its reputation, and some very limited poor reports on social aspects and attitudes towards women, especially tourists.

The social rules (dress code, manner of invite, who can invite, even who you can invite, who can dance with whom, etc) as opposed to common sense (hygiene, direction of travel, stepping backwards, high 'kicks', lifts, lanes, etc - still need teaching!), are relics of the past in that culture. If still active there, then respect them as a tourist/visitor. But then we've all had protests (rightly!) regarding changing the attitudes towards women, so these are dinosaurs - and, clearly, someone else will eventually take over, or it closes. But neither party is really providing any 'solution' to further AT.

 

[brujo]

To some extent I'd accept their milonga; their rules. But probably not where I'd choose to go if you have to make rules like that.

Someone pointed out that the rules actually violate Argentinian legal code for gender discrimination. It basically puts the establishment at risk by enforcing rules that are deemed offensive to the society. It’s weird that forcing gender stuff like this is acceptable where we wouldn’t tolerate things like “you can’t dance with someone else that is not your same race” or “only Christians can dance in this Milonga”.

It’s all for show. No milonga would say “no women allowed without a chaperone”. But somehow it’s ok to not allow women to lead. Blows my mind.

In California they even go as far as shutting down popular long lasting bars because they lost discrimination lawsuits because they had ladies nights. If milongas insist on being relics of the past then you’ll just have relics of the past dancing them.

 

[itwillhappen]

El Beso, the venue itself, has also spoken out, stating that the enforcement of traditional gender roles constitutes discrimination.

https://www.facebook.com/elbesolacasadeltango/posts/pfbid0MtSn7QFiT4faLANQemZzxS1LhbdAtCpHX1kjh3Gch1xz9e5R5ynMc69u54epnjX3l

However, opinions from laypeople, especially when issues trigger a sense of justice and they discuss them amongst themselves, can be problematic. In Germany, organizers can certainly take appropriate measures to reflect the nature of their dance events. To my knowledge (as a layperson), this includes, in particular, door staff, age limits, and discounted entry based on gender, same-sex access, but generally not based on skin color. Regarding same-sex dancing, the legal situation is unclear. Are there any reliable court rulings on this in Argentina?

 

[brujo]

However, opinions from laypeople, especially when issues trigger a sense of justice and they discuss them amongst themselves, can be problematic. In Germany, organizers can certainly take appropriate measures to reflect the nature of their dance events. To my knowledge (as a layperson), this includes, in particular, door staff, age limits, and discounted entry based on gender, same-sex access, but generally not based on skin color. Regarding same-sex dancing, the legal situation is unclear. Are there any reliable court rulings on this in Argentina?

Not as obvious inside the club but Kiara Acosta was a trans person denied in 2019 and there was even a case in 2025 where a club was fined $10k USD for denying entry for a person for “being fat”.

 

[TTanguero]

or “only Christians can dance in this Milonga”.

I'm not sure about that one. It seems to me that if you want to discriminate these days, your best chance of doing so is by claiming it's for religious reasons.

 

[Brummbaer]

However, opinions from laypeople, especially when issues trigger a sense of justice and they discuss them amongst themselves, can be problematic.

That's what's seen everywhere with any topic. We had similar responses decades ago about wearing seat-belts in cars (and more recently in coaches), smoking bans, alcohol whilst driving. And, of course, wider political issues - some bubbling over today: wars, resources, language spoken, 'free speech', omnivore vs. vegan, religion, even branches of religion, ethnicity, affiliations, faux patriotism, immigration/-migration/-refugees... These fill social media - and not in a good way.

But, to dancing... I agree with that first viewpoint: Our codes are not static, but a living mirror of our identity that adjusts to new times
however, it goes on to say...
must be renewed to embrace the sensitivity of our present and the dynamism of today's culture, always protecting the essence of our root.

There are clearly some who wish to retain earlier rules, even if archaic relics in society. Some later viewpoints reflect: my milonga; my rules.

It's a tricky path as societies evolve - placate the dinosaurs, but allow changes. And the pace of change can be very rapid.

But, on the topic, probabIy I too am a dinosaur who needs to be placated in some respects. Primarily, as a male leader, I don't want to be a 'follower' at a milonga. But it's not my problem if others wish to switch roles. I don't think the dancing looks as good, but so what? It's as fluff on the side compared with getting people involved in dancing.

 

[opendoor]

I don't mean to offend! We all know this thread is about integration, inclusion and finally assimilation. But sometimes it's the opposing currents that are crucial for change in minds and on the street ( or dance floor): segregation and dissipative milongas.

 

[Brummbaer]

I don't mean to offend! We all know this thread is about integration, inclusion and finally assimilation. But sometimes it's the opposing currents that are crucial for change in minds and on the street ( or dance floor): segregation and dissipative milongas.

Absolutely! But it has to offer something better to everyone, or at least a wide appeal. The dual-role isn't for everyone. We accept 'Queer Tango'; should we accept (probably not the correct phrasing!) women-only milongas? I'm fine with that, but it is, or should be, a niche. Or a male-only milonga?

 

[TTanguero]

I don't mean to offend! We all know this thread is about integration, inclusion and finally assimilation. But sometimes it's the opposing currents that are crucial for change in minds and on the street ( or dance floor): segregation and dissipative milongas.

Interestingly, I today saw a post saying that the Cachirulo organizers also run an informal event where dual-role and same-sex dancing is welcome. I don't have any personal knowledge of this, so can't be sure this is accurate.

 

[itwillhappen]

It's a tricky path as societies evolve - placate the dinosaurs, but allow changes. And the pace of change can be very rapid.

No disruptive developments are to be expected in social dancing; everything happens over decades. (With DJs, I think things might be different technologically.)
Double-role dancing is clearly an enrichment for women, a solution to their boredom; men have never been the mainstream focus in this area. (My SO has fun and a lot of talent for interpreting music, she's immediately accepted in the sisterhood, even with her basic technical skills.)
It doesn't seem to be very effective as a solution to latent dissatisfaction among women; at least, I don't see any evidence for that.

Primarily, as a male leader, I don't want to be a 'follower' at a milonga. But it's not my problem if others wish to switch roles.

At double-role events, it's often considered good form to switch roles during the tanda. (And for this reason, some very good female leaders avoid such events.) Societal values may shift in the medium term to the point where it's seen as misogynistic for a man not to be led equally; after all, it's expected in the workplace these days. But well, we don't know what the future holds.

I don't think the dancing looks as good, but so what? It's as fluff on the side compared with getting people involved in dancing.

No, most of the time this role switch doesn't look good, but apparently that's unimportant, and it's often even encouraged ("dance like nobody's watching").
When we switch roles at milongas, my SO sends a signal to other double-rolers. And I get better dances as a leader because I'm apparently such a nice guy.

It's as fluff on the side compared with getting people involved in dancing.

At least thirty years have passed without a solution being found, despite all efforts. I think the matter is closed.

 

[brujo]

No disruptive developments are to be expected in social dancing; everything happens over decades. (With DJs, I think things might be different technologically.)

The technological solution already exists.

 

[brujo]

The technological solution already exists.

<- non Facebook mirror