The long-term solution is dual-role dancing?

[Bailango]

<- non Facebook mirror

Not sure what the hi tech solution is.

Clearly follower is back leading.

 

[brujo]

Not sure what the hi tech solution is.

Clearly follower is back leading.

The lead is doing exactly what the follow desires. It’s telepathy bro

 

[Bailango]

It’s telepathy bro

That’s not hitech, more like ancient tech

 

[tango.suenio]

But, to dancing... I agree with that first viewpoint: Our codes are not static, but a living mirror of our identity that adjusts to new times
however, it goes on to say...
must be renewed to embrace the sensitivity of our present and the dynamism of today's culture, always protecting the essence of our root.

There are clearly some who wish to retain earlier rules, even if archaic relics in society. Some later viewpoints reflect: my milonga; my rules.

It's to everyone's benefit that a variety of milongas exist that span the breadth of traditional to queer with waypoints in between. People are pulled in by different aspects of the dance and do not have uniform preferences regarding intimacy or trust which includes an accounting of the environments in which they feel free to express themselves.

Even if such dances runs afoul of a country's legal codes we ought to desire for them to be preserved and sustained rather than call for their downfall so long as there is sufficient participation that they may continue to put out a ronda.

If the so-called 'traditional' milongas are only beloved by 'dinosaurs' then let them die a natural death; just as the actual dinosaurs enjoyed. All calls to end them early, especially by state mandate (law), feel to me as coming from a place of anxiety and deep insecurity. If what you put out is something worth having, people will come, if they prefer something or someone else, then maybe what you're offering is not for them.

Alternatively, if this is about someone needing access to everyone everywhere at anytime of their choosing, then they ought better to develop some humility. Not everyone wants to dance with you or near you. Those who don't desire it don't owe you an explanation. Having the tact to accept that is part of becoming a fully faceted human being.

 

[Brummbaer]

Even if such dances runs afoul of a country's legal codes we ought to desire for them to be preserved and sustained rather than call for their downfall so long as there is sufficient participation that they may continue to put out a ronda.

I take your point, but that depends on the legal codes, and why the laws change. Some 'traditions' exploit and oppress, or exclude a group. Should we 'allow' male, or women, only 'clubs'? Women-only is less frowned upon because it's seen to protect women from men; male-only is, in some jurisdictions, illegal, because it excluded women from, let's say, 'networking' and decision making.

Dance gatherings? Discount if you bring a male?

 

[itwillhappen]

It's to everyone's benefit that a variety of milongas exist that span the breadth of traditional to queer with waypoints in between. People are pulled in by different aspects of the dance and do not have uniform preferences regarding intimacy or trust which includes an accounting of the environments in which they feel free to express themselves.

Nothing is to everyone's benefit. Opinions about what is in the best interest of the community are also usually shaped by one's own situation and needs. (This is no more true for community leaders like tango teachers and organizers than for others, but it is more evident in their case.)
And so, regarding diversification, someone in a metropolis with 50 or 51 milongas per week will have a different opinion than someone in a rural area with one or no milonga per month.

Even if such dances runs afoul of a country's legal codes we ought to desire for them to be preserved and sustained rather than call for their downfall so long as there is sufficient participation that they may continue to put out a ronda.

I consider this (in Germany) a fake debate. As far as I know, organizers here are allowed to hold dance events for young and old, women and men, with gender balance or double rolers. There are also rulings from the highest courts regarding dance events with bouncers.
But if anyone can cite specific laws and rulings to the contrary, I would be grateful. There's at least one milonga in Berlin just for women, and I'm meeting the organizer this coming weekend.

If the so-called 'traditional' milongas are only beloved by 'dinosaurs' then let them die a natural death; just as the actual dinosaurs enjoyed. All calls to end them early, especially by state mandate (law), feel to me as coming from a place of anxiety and deep insecurity. If what you put out is something worth having, people will come, if they prefer something or someone else, then maybe what you're offering is not for them.

In that sense, it wouldn't be a tragedy for the general public (99,9...%) if tango itself were to die out (again). It's simply a leisure activity that has been replaced by others. Even if some people mourn their "investment".
However, due to demographic trends, traditional milongas could see a resurgence in popularity, particularly among older, more conservative attendees.

Alternatively, if this is about someone needing access to everyone everywhere at anytime of their choosing, then they ought better to develop some humility. Not everyone wants to dance with you or near you. Those who don't desire it don't owe you an explanation. Having the tact to accept that is part of becoming a fully faceted human being.

Hotshots and wallflowers usually have a different view on this aspect as well.

 

[brujo]

Dance gatherings? Discount if you bring a male?

I used to live in a super lead heavy city. It was always interesting that the instructors didn’t care about the imbalance. Oh, you have to stand for half of the class without a follow, whatever, suck it up.

Now there are a lot of classes where they can’t find enough leads and it’s super interesting to see all the incentives that get invented to try to get more folks in to work with followers. A teacher offered two private classes for free for guys who would sign up for beginner classes as leads. Speed dating like events where they would match you with a partner of your choice to take classes together. Lots of clever and innovative ideas that never felt existed when the problem was too few follows. ( I’m not bitter I swear. Just amused and jealous of how easy the new leads seem to have it )

 

[Brummbaer]

Now there are a lot of classes where they can’t find enough leads and it’s super interesting to see all the incentives that get invented to try to get more folks in to work with followers.

Yes, I've observed that as well. Half-price (or better) entry to a milonga if you bring a lead.

However, I've also witnessed excess male leads in group classes rather than the more usual excess female followers. The usual solution in a group class is the 'bus stop' (change partners when passing). It's also where I started some basic following.

 

[itwillhappen]

I used to live in a super lead heavy city. It was always interesting that the instructors didn’t care about the imbalance. Oh, you have to stand for half of the class without a follow, whatever, suck it up.

Now there are a lot of classes where they can’t find enough leads and it’s super interesting to see all the incentives that get invented to try to get more folks in to work with followers.

Here in Northern Europe, dancing is much more popular with women across the board, so these differences don't exist.
But that's how we've been socialized. And historically, tango was organized by men for women.

I was recently at an intermediate-level workshop where the instructor, at one point exasperated, asked the participants to what degree, on a scale, they felt they were influencing the dance. She clearly wasn't interested in the leaders' perspective.

 

[itwillhappen]

After a long time, Veronica Tumanova has published an essay again:

Why women learning to lead is good for everyone

Some time in spring of 2026, two women decided to dance a tanda at a notoriously traditional milonga in Buenos Aires. They were then scolded and physically attacked by the milonga’s organiser…

verotango.com

Well-considered, clear thoughts. Like Melina Sedó, she also states her business interests.

But of course, this shift is by no means "good for everyone."
I am reading an equally well-considered response here:

Goodnight Tango: Learned Helplessness

Does the invisible hand of the market really push male leaders to improve when female leaders enter the market?

goodnighttango.com

I can certainly confirm his key personal experience:

I consider myself a fairly confident leader. I have put in the years, I care about my dance, and I am not easily discouraged. And yet when I look at the female leaders in my community… at the ease with which they move through the room, especially as beginner leaders, the warmth with which they are received, the invitations that come to them in ways that simply don’t come to me… I know that I am not competing with them. Not really. Not because I have decided to opt out, but because I can see clearly that the competition, as it actually exists, is not one I can win on equal terms.

That recognition doesn’t devastate me. But I am a fairly confident leader now, but it took me almost ten years to arrive in this place. I can hold that knowledge and keep dancing anyway.

A beginner can’t. A man who is two years into tango, still uncertain, still building, who watches this dynamic play out in every milonga… he doesn’t have the reserves to absorb it. He doesn’t frame it as a structural problem or a market failure. He just feels it. And what he feels is that the effort required is enormous… the return is uncertain… and the floor seems to be telling him quietly and consistently that his place in it is shrinking.

So he stops pushing. He finds his level, and he stays there. Or he leaves.

And we look at him and say he doesn’t care.

For advanced and/or established leaders, this development feels quite comfortable. My girlfriends leads me - drawing on her few hours of leading lessons and my own experience following (which occasionally even allows for a few ochos or a turn) - even at the best events in Northern Europe ... for half a song now and then. Meanwhile, at a local milonga, I can sit down and wait for good music or order something to eat. It makes no longer a difference what the gender ratio is - that is something the women can and have to sort out among themselves.

 

[opendoor]

..And yet when I look at the female leaders in my community… at the ease with which they move through the room, especially as beginner leaders, the warmth with which they are received, the invitations that come to them in ways that simply don’t come to me…

I only can confirm this observation. Females in a leading role are generally so much more grounded, flexible, and at the same time more upright than their male colleagues. I cannot understand why Bailango hasn't noticed it yet.

 

[TTanguero]

But of course, this shift is by no means "good for everyone."
I am reading an equally well-considered response here:

I'm really curious as to what factors might influence experiences here, as I haven't observed this effect at all – and from what I can see, I'm a less experienced dancer than he is.

As an aside, I find it annoying how many blog posts and social media posts are being written by AI, but that's just me being a grumpy writer ...

 

[MediocresAires]

I'm a female double role dancer. There are some things in the the Goodnight Tango article that I agree with and some that I don't.

I agree that the treshold to lead socially is lower for female double rolers. However, I also see female double rolers who take classes forever and don't feel ready to lead at milongas - same as with male leaders.

I also agree that it is easier for female leaders to get dances with followers they already know. However, I don't think that the following is true:

A follower choosing between an unfamiliar male leader and an unfamiliar female one faces a different calculation in each case… different histories, different social dynamics, different physical considerations. The female leader starts with a lower threshold to clear in that respect.

Recently, Melina Sedó complained how hard it is for her to get dances as a leader at a marathon. My own experience is that I rarely get dances as a leader with unknown followers. Yelizaveta Nersesova also said in a podcast that in her experience there are followers who only want to dance with male leaders.

My own theory is that followers dance with female leaders for different reasons than with male leaders. Heterosexual women might prefer men because of the sexual energy that lacks in a female-female couple. The men get the "serious" dances. Meanwhile, I often get the dances where the follower chews my ears off about the health state of her aunt's dog. Men get the candelight dinner dance while I get the coffee klatch dance. Which is better than no dance, so I'm not gonna complain too much. But I would advise against the rose coloured glasses that the author put on in the article. The reality of female leaders is more complex than that.

Also, my experience is that after my first tanda in the evening as a leader, I get far less cabeceos from male leaders. I don't know why. But usually when I start leading, I have to dance the rest of the tandas with women because men stop inviting me for some reason.

 

[TTanguero]

Also, my experience is that after my first tanda in the evening as a leader, I get far less cabeceos from male leaders. I don't know why.

If I see a woman leading in flat shoes and I haven't seen her following, then I would be wary of cabeceoing her as a follower, as I don't want to cause offense by making it seem like I assume she follows just because she's a woman. I do know at least two female leaders who only lead.

 

[Brummbaer]

Also, my experience is that after my first tanda in the evening as a leader, I get far less cabeceos from male leaders. I don't know why. But usually when I start leading, I have to dance the rest of the tandas with women because men stop inviting me for some reason.

Isn't that self evident? You've moved AT to being about the 'dance' more than a heterosexual social event. Most men didn't start to learn AT to dance with the same sex - nor women to 'follow' with a female leader (although that perspective is more complex, as you've noted - earlier posts and other threads point out that the early days single-sex práctica was about who was available to learn, and with the objective of 'getting the girl').

If I'm at a milonga and I see a female leading, and dressed for that role, I'm unlikely to invite her to dance. If it's a female I know who leads, and she's leading, I won't interrupt the flow. If we get chatting, then I'll probably invite her to dance (but I'd be prepared to be told 'no', because she's wearing the wrong shoes, or has to change). She may even invite me to dance!

You don't get invites to dance because you appear to be unavailable. That may not be the case, but you're asking a simple male to decode the mixed messaging. (It is more complex than that!) Then we get to a more basic issue of why some female followers aren't invited - and there's a whole spectrum of reasons given from poor dancer/beginner to 'too hot to handle'.