fascination
Site Moderator
for crying out loud chris...you have to argue w/ her sig line when she's asked folks not to bother responding?...good heavens
The top 5 reasons a woman wants to dance with a specific man
- Thread starter Zoopsia59
- Start date
wooh
Well-Known Member
You act surprised by this?
fascination
Site Moderator
no...BOT ...if that is even possible anymore
jennyisdancing
Active Member
And at this point, I would rather skip the milonga and head out to a movie... ALONE.
I have done that...
Seriously, I'm kind of sad that I haven't done AT in quite a while. I fell in love with the dance but there is such a leader shortage that I got tired of sitting out a lot. And when I did get up and dance, so often it was the type of thing Zoops is talking about - people obsessing over minutiae of fancy steps and technique, instead of feeling the music and relating to their partner.
Joe
Forum Master
The guy in my killfile is right--I am primarily a ballroom dancer, and dabbble in AT only occasionally. But you're also right, Chris--my comment referred to partner dancing in general.
Actually, my tango has been described as incredibly grounded, by the same follower. I presume this to be a compliment. I was asked how I produce this groundedness, and can't really describe it, but it didn't come from learning tango.
Don't be sad, Jenny, just learn to lead, and you are never at the mercy of the quality or quantity of leaders. You will be able to express your own feeling of the music and relate to your partner whenever you want.Seriously, I'm kind of sad that I haven't done AT in quite a while. I fell in love with the dance but there is such a leader shortage that I got tired of sitting out a lot. And when I did get up and dance, so often it was the type of thing Zoops is talking about - people obsessing over minutiae of fancy steps and technique, instead of feeling the music and relating to their partner.
I hope having attentively read every post in this thread might give me the right to say a few things [my tongue’s practically bitten-through...], without appearing to be contributing to any perceived absurdity.
As a beginner and guy, every single little piece of advice/guidance I can receive is worth a great deal – and particularly any from a woman’s perspective is solid gold [well, far more than that, since I’m not materialistic]: so I’d like to thank all of the women (particularly) who’ve contributed, and hope that the perceived response from some of the guys won’t put them off from continuing to do so in the future. It is much appreciated.
But a guy I am and it is a forum (a place to exchange ideas with a view to mutually increasing understanding [well, so they keep telling me, anyway...]), so I’d like to try to counter-balance some of the negative perceptions that some of the guys have left behind; hopefully receiving some more enlightenment in the process.
With one notable exception (and even then, not so much at the beginning), it’s probably worth mentally adding an unwritten preface to many of the guys’ [also extremely helpful, cheers] posts (certainly including mine) to the effect of:-
‘That’s great general advice and something that I always aspire to but have found that sometimes doing that very thing has led to horrendous consequences, so can we get more specifics please? [Not to challenge your assertion for the sake of it, but so that we poor menfolk – who have been told from second one that if anything goes wrong it’s completely our fault – have a better idea of what to not do wrong, in the real setting. (And yes, we know that the OP was tongue-in-cheek, but this is Important Stuff, that we can all benefit from, once we’ve got it sorted out; so thank you for your forebearance).]’
Bit ponderous (as ‘clarity’ tends to be), but something like that....
As to the perceived male resistance to the idea of not being an a*se being taken as emblematic/enlightening/saying a lot about society (plus what happens when ‘charity’ meets ‘pride’ in a hard-faced culture devoted to divisiveness and power); it’s important to get the cart and the horse the right way round: whilst emotions may come and go, sometimes the practical and social consequences of an even slight misunderstanding can remain forever – and these must also inform the decision made as to ‘choice’ of Character (in a culture that is bigger than an individual).
As with Fascination, this is pretty much my primary soap-box, so I’ll keep on biting my tongue about this, but it’s worth having some sympathy for the guys who have been nothing but punished – in the worst possible ways – throughout their entire lives for being ‘nice’, who have still kept at it, having some problems with a statement to the effect of ‘just be nice’. Selfless generosity can very easily be misinterpreted, and that misinterpretation relentlessly and mercilessly acted upon, to the point that a decent guy can lose an entire social scene in a few seconds (genuine nobility of intent and previous good-will built up counting for nothing whatsoever), if he’s perceived as ‘nice’ (ie weak, ie an easy target to be destroyed at whim etc).
If it’s a scene that the guy can’t afford to lose (say his Tango scene is the only available one and very small), then his previous life experience may have informed him that if ‘niceness’ = ‘easy, catastrophic, exploitability/destroyability’ then he really needs to be bringing something else with him too in order to protect himself (reserve, ‘coldness’, some form of media-driven fake-‘Street’ ‘edge’ etc), however distasteful it may be to him to have to do so: it’s pre-emptive self-defence, since no man can single-handedly change the culture that surrounds him (though some will try for decades, at ever-increasing cost...).
Clearly this isn’t hypothetical; but it is both an attempt at explanation (YMMV as to what extent it may be actual justification - and it never justifies flat-out bad manners!) and preface for a request for information that will inform my Character-choice as I move deeper into the (potentially) glorious world that is TA (a world where I will be safe to be myself [selfless, generous, empathic, agenda-less, warm] without being furiously punished for those qualities, in an effort to be allowed to be what the OP stated, to the benefit of future partners):-
What is it about TA (especially ‘traditional’) that allows a good man to commit the ‘patriarchal’ ‘sin’ of being a ‘gentleman’ (therefore ‘a pushover/sap/sucker’ etc too), without being punished for that? [I haven’t found it to be the case with Salsa, and am only specifying ‘traditional’ because that’s what I’m learning: for better or worse, nuevo has other dynamics in play that will complicate the answer – I’m not tedious-worm-can opening!]
I’m kind of going with the flow (right hemisphere) and finding it working, but being a man, I need answers too (left hemisphere); and am not really feeling comfortable until I have them – to the detriment of my partners’ experience (which I’d like to prevent, as per the OP).
Is it pretty much just that dance is play (-acting); those involved are approaching it in a very similar manner to how they would approach a ‘deep-immersion’ RPG (Role Play Game), or any play as a child; and that ‘traditional’ TA self-selects those (generally) who feel a certain nostalgia for the ‘better times’ of courtesy, honour, genuine humility and ‘gallantry’, and will respond accordingly (within the confines of the dance/class etc, at least)?
I hope that the people here will indulge my long post, since I almost never post (but avidly read everything) and have only done so here because I really, really need some help in informing my TA-Character choice, for the good of every current and future partner as well as myself....
[PS: Don’t worry, I don’t dance/paint/sculpt etc the way I debate/ask questions – it’s the heavy analysis at the front/prep end being satisfied that allows me to relax and switch it off completely in the doing....]
Cheers!
As a beginner and guy, every single little piece of advice/guidance I can receive is worth a great deal – and particularly any from a woman’s perspective is solid gold [well, far more than that, since I’m not materialistic]: so I’d like to thank all of the women (particularly) who’ve contributed, and hope that the perceived response from some of the guys won’t put them off from continuing to do so in the future. It is much appreciated.
But a guy I am and it is a forum (a place to exchange ideas with a view to mutually increasing understanding [well, so they keep telling me, anyway...]), so I’d like to try to counter-balance some of the negative perceptions that some of the guys have left behind; hopefully receiving some more enlightenment in the process.
With one notable exception (and even then, not so much at the beginning), it’s probably worth mentally adding an unwritten preface to many of the guys’ [also extremely helpful, cheers] posts (certainly including mine) to the effect of:-
‘That’s great general advice and something that I always aspire to but have found that sometimes doing that very thing has led to horrendous consequences, so can we get more specifics please? [Not to challenge your assertion for the sake of it, but so that we poor menfolk – who have been told from second one that if anything goes wrong it’s completely our fault – have a better idea of what to not do wrong, in the real setting. (And yes, we know that the OP was tongue-in-cheek, but this is Important Stuff, that we can all benefit from, once we’ve got it sorted out; so thank you for your forebearance).]’
Bit ponderous (as ‘clarity’ tends to be), but something like that....
As to the perceived male resistance to the idea of not being an a*se being taken as emblematic/enlightening/saying a lot about society (plus what happens when ‘charity’ meets ‘pride’ in a hard-faced culture devoted to divisiveness and power); it’s important to get the cart and the horse the right way round: whilst emotions may come and go, sometimes the practical and social consequences of an even slight misunderstanding can remain forever – and these must also inform the decision made as to ‘choice’ of Character (in a culture that is bigger than an individual).
As with Fascination, this is pretty much my primary soap-box, so I’ll keep on biting my tongue about this, but it’s worth having some sympathy for the guys who have been nothing but punished – in the worst possible ways – throughout their entire lives for being ‘nice’, who have still kept at it, having some problems with a statement to the effect of ‘just be nice’. Selfless generosity can very easily be misinterpreted, and that misinterpretation relentlessly and mercilessly acted upon, to the point that a decent guy can lose an entire social scene in a few seconds (genuine nobility of intent and previous good-will built up counting for nothing whatsoever), if he’s perceived as ‘nice’ (ie weak, ie an easy target to be destroyed at whim etc).
If it’s a scene that the guy can’t afford to lose (say his Tango scene is the only available one and very small), then his previous life experience may have informed him that if ‘niceness’ = ‘easy, catastrophic, exploitability/destroyability’ then he really needs to be bringing something else with him too in order to protect himself (reserve, ‘coldness’, some form of media-driven fake-‘Street’ ‘edge’ etc), however distasteful it may be to him to have to do so: it’s pre-emptive self-defence, since no man can single-handedly change the culture that surrounds him (though some will try for decades, at ever-increasing cost...).
Clearly this isn’t hypothetical; but it is both an attempt at explanation (YMMV as to what extent it may be actual justification - and it never justifies flat-out bad manners!) and preface for a request for information that will inform my Character-choice as I move deeper into the (potentially) glorious world that is TA (a world where I will be safe to be myself [selfless, generous, empathic, agenda-less, warm] without being furiously punished for those qualities, in an effort to be allowed to be what the OP stated, to the benefit of future partners):-
What is it about TA (especially ‘traditional’) that allows a good man to commit the ‘patriarchal’ ‘sin’ of being a ‘gentleman’ (therefore ‘a pushover/sap/sucker’ etc too), without being punished for that? [I haven’t found it to be the case with Salsa, and am only specifying ‘traditional’ because that’s what I’m learning: for better or worse, nuevo has other dynamics in play that will complicate the answer – I’m not tedious-worm-can opening!]
I’m kind of going with the flow (right hemisphere) and finding it working, but being a man, I need answers too (left hemisphere); and am not really feeling comfortable until I have them – to the detriment of my partners’ experience (which I’d like to prevent, as per the OP).
Is it pretty much just that dance is play (-acting); those involved are approaching it in a very similar manner to how they would approach a ‘deep-immersion’ RPG (Role Play Game), or any play as a child; and that ‘traditional’ TA self-selects those (generally) who feel a certain nostalgia for the ‘better times’ of courtesy, honour, genuine humility and ‘gallantry’, and will respond accordingly (within the confines of the dance/class etc, at least)?
I hope that the people here will indulge my long post, since I almost never post (but avidly read everything) and have only done so here because I really, really need some help in informing my TA-Character choice, for the good of every current and future partner as well as myself....
[PS: Don’t worry, I don’t dance/paint/sculpt etc the way I debate/ask questions – it’s the heavy analysis at the front/prep end being satisfied that allows me to relax and switch it off completely in the doing....]
Cheers!
bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
good post; far more eloquent on the pitfalls of being "nice" than i was
fascination
Site Moderator
vv..I appreciate your post...and I cannot pretend to address it with the sort of elegance you have shown...nor can I pretend to be an expert on the TA community as my exposure to it is limited, not non-existant, but limited...I will only say this...the two thoughts I had when reading your post were;
1) there isn't a safe and sure way to strike a perfect balance with all women...just as when one is hitting a bucket of golf balls, even if your intention is equally good in each swing, the result will vary and the sweet spot is elusive due to many variables
2) it is true that there are a certain percentage of women who say one thing and mean another(even is unconsciously) and will not appreciate a nice guy the least bit, even if they are able to recognize him, perhaps even especially if the recognize him...which contributes to point number one
1) there isn't a safe and sure way to strike a perfect balance with all women...just as when one is hitting a bucket of golf balls, even if your intention is equally good in each swing, the result will vary and the sweet spot is elusive due to many variables
2) it is true that there are a certain percentage of women who say one thing and mean another(even is unconsciously) and will not appreciate a nice guy the least bit, even if they are able to recognize him, perhaps even especially if the recognize him...which contributes to point number one
I agree strongly enough to try entering the thread again.
The implication is that may take effort, perception, and skill, to do the right thing in a particular situation.
I should add that I expect I will be judged based on results, and any effort I expend will seldom be noticed. It has *not* been my experience that good intentions / strong effort have always led to favorable outcomes. That's fine, and I'm not complaining. I won't however, agree with a claim that it's always easy to achieve a favorable outcome. Furthermore, I won't agree that achievement of a favorable outcome is always 100% within my control.
fascination
Site Moderator
tangogo-dancer
Member
Wow, I think I've eventually read the whole thread (my eyes are bleeding). I understand that the general consensus is :
* if girls don't know the guy beforehand, they'll be more likely to accept a dance with someone who has a nice shirt and looks like a gentleman rather than a caveman
* girls will enjoy the experience if the guy does the best he can to provide a good dance, and in particular will not make them feel like crap.
This seems to be very close to what I as a leader expect (or hope) - provided that you replace "nice shirt" by "nice shoes".
* if girls don't know the guy beforehand, they'll be more likely to accept a dance with someone who has a nice shirt and looks like a gentleman rather than a caveman
* girls will enjoy the experience if the guy does the best he can to provide a good dance, and in particular will not make them feel like crap.
This seems to be very close to what I as a leader expect (or hope) - provided that you replace "nice shirt" by "nice shoes".
bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
