Three rhythms to dance to...

[jantango]

We learn something new every day I guess

It's new to me too, but it makes sense.

And dance teachers continue to invent things to keep students coming to class. The term isn't correctly applied to tango, because there is no syncopation in tango--West Coast Swing, yes, but not tango.

 

[Zoopsia59]

And dance teachers continue to invent things to keep students coming to class. The term isn't correctly applied to tango, because there is no syncopation in tango--West Coast Swing, yes, but not tango.

Yes, you are right... This got discussed before I believe. Usually when people use the term "syncopation" in this context they are really meaning dancing the double time beat which is not really syncopation. But we are lazy and writing 'syncopate', while incorrect, is easier than writing "dancing the quicks".

If you have a better shorthand term for what we are talking about, I for one would love to have it in my vocabulary, because it IS misleading to refer to this as syncopation.

 

[jantango]

Syncopation, Double step, Triple Step

Yes, you are right... This got discussed before I believe. Usually when people use the term "syncopation" in this context they are really meaning dancing the double time beat which is not really syncopation. But we are lazy and writing 'syncopate', while incorrect, is easier than writing "dancing the quicks".

If you have a better shorthand term for what we are talking about, I for one would love to have it in my vocabulary, because it IS misleading to refer to this as syncopation.

Tango and Milonga have two rhythms that we dance--double and triple. A double is TWO STEPS in two beats of music. A triple is THREE STEPS in two beats of music.

In musical terms, a syncopation is the stressing of the normally unstressed beat in a bar. The normal rhythm in tango is 1 & 2 & | 3 & 4 &. We dance either 1 - 2 (double rhythm) or 1 & 2 (triple rhythm). It's that simple. The downbeat is heavy, the upbeat (&) is light.

The recordings of Rodolfo Biagi provide a good example of syncopated tango in the music, but we don't syncopate our steps to it. This is an example of the syncopation of Biagi: - & - & | - & 2 & Listen to one of his recordings. Tap your hand for the downbeats and notice where the upbeats are accented by the bandoneones. That is the syncopation.

I studied instrumental music, harmony and theory, which is an asset as a dance teacher. I help dancers learn how to listen to the music. Ilene Marder of Woodstock Tango offers her "Meet the Music" seminars before a NYC milonga where she is deejay.

Dancers must hear the underlying rhythm in the music in order to dance, whether it comes from the string bass, piano, or bandoneon. It is constantly changing in tangos, and from orchestra to orchestra. Each one has its own style. And we dance differently to each style.

 

[kieronneedscake]

Well, I'm going to defend my turn of phrase, because it was me that coined it approximately 9 hours ago while trying to find a neat way to explain what I meant. It seemed ok at the time, but I see a more strict definition of syncopation doesn't obviously apply.

Syncopation can be defined as the accenting of unusual beats. If my partner dances on a different beat to me, is it not fair to say that she is syncopated with reference to my metronome? She emphasizes an unusual beat because it is not the one I am stepping on. It's a weak defence I admit.

 

[Me]

I wouldn't worry about it - I thought what you said was fine and I understood it perfectly.

I like coming here and seeing other dancers explore language in an attempt to share their knowledge and experiences. And, sometimes we have a lot of fun with it (i.e. the verbs "to molinate," "to adornoficate," etc.)

 

[bordertangoman]

Well, I'm going to defend my turn of phrase, because it was me that coined it approximately 9 hours ago while trying to find a neat way to explain what I meant. It seemed ok at the time, but I see a more strict definition of syncopation doesn't obviously apply.

Syncopation can be defined as the accenting of unusual beats. If my partner dances on a different beat to me, is it not fair to say that she is syncopated with reference to my metronome? She emphasizes an unusual beat because it is not the one I am stepping on. It's a weak defence I admit.

I have tried something similar: i lead my partner dancing on the rhythm ( violins) while I danced the bandoneon melody

 

[Zoopsia59]

The recordings of Rodolfo Biagi provide a good example of syncopated tango in the music, but we don't syncopate our steps to it. This is an example of the syncopation of Biagi: - & - & | - & 2 & Listen to one of his recordings. Tap your hand for the downbeats and notice where the upbeats are accented by the bandoneones. That is the syncopation.

Dancers must hear the underlying rhythm in the music in order to dance, whether it comes from the string bass, piano, or bandoneon. It is constantly changing in tangos, and from orchestra to orchestra. Each one has its own style. And we dance differently to each style.

I think you misunderstood my post. I was not asking for an explanation of syncopation. I was asking for a term to use when we refer to dancing the quicks in milonga (most often in my limited experience as a 1,2,1,hold, or quick, quick, slow combination, OR a continuation of quicks that eventually end on a slow 1 count)

People often use the term "syncopate" when talking about dancing milonga even though I agreed that isn't correct. I'm searching for another term that is just as convenient, but more accurate.

I suppose I could say traspie, but only someone who already knows milonga understands that term, in which case a musical explanation isn't needed. I'm also not sure of the actual definition of traspie... does it apply to moving on quicks steps or only to standing in place accenting the quicks?

 

[Peaches]

IME, it's pretty standard amongst dancers to use the term "syncopate" differently than the technical musical definition.

In the dance realm, I've always heard syncopate used to describe any sort of stepping don't not on the beat (be that on the &, or on the ah, or whatever...although i think those are the only two other things I've seen stepped on, at least that I can think of offhand).

...as opposed to the musical definition which, as I've always understood it, is any sort of accenting done not on the primary beat. I don't feel like getting into a technical musical discussion, so please no one feel the need to point out that I'm wrong. I'm not a musician--just raised to be one, the daughter of one, and the wife of one--and don't have theoretical training besides what I've gleaned from my mom and DH over the last *ahem* years.

 

[jantango]

I think you misunderstood my post. I was not asking for an explanation of syncopation. I was asking for a term to use when we refer to dancing the quicks in milonga (most often in my limited experience as a 1,2,1,hold, or quick, quick, slow combination, OR a continuation of quicks that eventually end on a slow 1 count)

People often use the term "syncopate" when talking about dancing milonga even though I agreed that isn't correct. I'm searching for another term that is just as convenient, but more accurate.

I suppose I could say traspie, but only someone who already knows milonga understands that term, in which case a musical explanation isn't needed. I'm also not sure of the actual definition of traspie... does it apply to moving on quicks steps or only to standing in place accenting the quicks?

Using "quicks" in explaining dance steps is incorrect terminology invented by dance teachers who have no musical training. There are no quicks; there is double rhythm and triple rhythm. See Skippy Blair's dance dictionary if you want to know more about it.

Dancers use the term "syncopate" when they really mean "triple". That is why I wrote what I did to answer your question.

"Traspie" means "to trip or stumble." It is used in referring to Milonga with triple rhythm steps as opposed to only double rhythm steps.

This terminology isn't new; it just hasn't been used by teachers of tango. Skippy Blair (85) is still teaching swing dancers how to teach in California.

 

[kieronneedscake]

Using "quicks" in explaining dance steps is incorrect terminology invented by dance teachers who have no musical training.

Invented by dance teachers who take pity on their students and do not care to force ballroom terminology down their throats more like. "Slow quick quick slow" etc. is a far more readily understood way of explaining steps because it treats all beats within a bar individually.

As a musician of some veterancy, I can say that the dance definition of "double" and "triple" has absolutely no grounding in music theory. Double time, sure, marking at twice the pulse of the music, but triple ought to be three times the pulse, not twice the pulse with an arbitrary rest to make it fit into the space of four. "Triple" in waltz means something else entirely to the body that does the stepping, so you have two special versions of triple. Very peculiar. To this mathmatician and musician, the dance terminology seems misleading and illogical.

What would you call it if I danced (steps on *) : 1*.....2...*...3.....4*....?
Is this dancing a triple too? Or are we allowed to call that syncopation?

 

[Zoopsia59]

Invented by dance teachers who take pity on their students and do not care to force ballroom terminology down their throats more like.

Actually I hear ballroom teachers using the "quick, quick, slow" terminology as well. I don't think its because they don't know better. I think its because when you are trying to teach a middle aged, non physical agile person who has NO dance training and NO music training how to dance a structured partnered social dance as an adult, the student has all they can deal with just to figure out basic steps in the beginning and not step on their partner.

Trying to explain Fox Trot, or worse, Cha Cha using musical counts to instill the correct rhythm adds more than the student can process sometimes, so they just tell them to think "Slow, Slow, Quick-Quick" (for fox trot) or rock,step,chachacha (for Cha Cha) The students usually hear what they need to hear in the music, they just don't understand the music theory that is behind it.

The fact that the count for the chachacha part of cha cha isn't the 3&4 counts is more than they can take in in the first couple of lessons and definitely more than they want to know. You can see the flashing TOO MUCH INFORMATION sign go off in their eyes. If nothing else, beginners have a great deal of trouble starting on the correct '1' in cha cha. Its FAR easier to start on the 2. They hear the 4&1 as a 'set' and starting during it is hard.

So I have no problem with the idea of using whatever gets the rhythm into the people's heads and saving the complex music theory for a lesson a little further down the road. People go to their local dance studio to have fun and learn to dance (sometimes reluctantly at the urging of their spouse) If "Quick,quick slow" gets them moving correctly and ENJOYING it, and correct music theory makes their head explode, then 'quick, quick, slow' it is!

 

[Steve Pastor]

Ooo, how cool that you know about Skippy! I am a big fan of her, and her work in teaching people about the relationship between music and dance.
And, it turns out that Skippy has a "saying" about planting weeds. Not teaching people to dance WITH the music, is definately "planting a weed".
When we get into HOW to teach, I'm a bit conflicted.
When you get to a certain level, you have to step up the game. And I mean in terms of musicality, not just cool moves. Teachers have it particularly rough, because you have to find something the works.
Most people, I guess, are capable of learning without the "theory". Then again, maybe not, because most people don't even dance in time to the music. Maybe you DO have to understand the music to be really good.
See, I said I was conflicted.

 

[Steve Pastor]

there is no syncopation in tango

Robert Farris disagrees with you.
"strong off beat pharsings called sincopas keep a black pluse beneath transcience" p 169
"early tango would take the form of a simple melody played over the habanera bass beat.... in the 1910s and 1920s the great bandleaders...Firpo...Canaro...Caro... expanded the rhythic repotory, adding...the sincopa, offbeat phrasing, accenting the weak part of a measure." p 170
"Firpo seasoned his tunes with off beats, and they called the style tango canyengue." p 181

 

[Steve Pastor]

SYNCOPATION -

(1) The "rearrangement" of the metered beat. (2) For the Dancer, it is the rearrangement of the weight changes within the "2-Beat" Rhythms. (3) Stepping BEFORE the beat (on the "&" or the "a" count) and then stepping again, or doing something ELSE on the actual beat of the Music. Example: Count: "&a1." Lift your knee on the "&," step on the "a" and "Kick" on count "1." Kick again on count “2.” This is a "Syncopated Single."

Teaching Note:
The understanding and teaching of Syncopations has developed significantly. In West Coast Swing in the late 1970s, a petite dancer, known as "Little Annie," had people awe-struck over her syncopated footwork. With the benefit of "The System," we were able to break down all of the interesting variations that fascinated the dancing world. Those were the start of an endless progression of syncopations. "Little Annie" is ANNIE HIRSCH, current president of the World Swing Dance Council. Annie lives in Corona Del Mar, California.

(also see: ADVANCED RHYTHM, CALIFORNIA SHUFFLE, DELAYED RHYTHMS)

http://www.swingworld.com/dance_dictionary.htm

I am under no illusion that I can affect the big picture on this subject, but if a song has a 4/4 time signature, and we are dancing on the the two accented beats of the measure, and I am another instrument, and I step on an unaccented beat, thus accenting it, aren't I "syncopating"?

 

[Steve Pastor]

And, since Jantango brought up Skippy...
Before Skippy there was Lauré Haile, Arthur Murray National Dance Director, who documented swing dancing as done in the Los Angeles area and used the name "Western Swing", which for all intents and purposes was West Coast Swing. (Skippy did not learn directly from Lauré, BTW.)
Lauré wrote in her "Dance Notebook"s that the steps in a syncopation did not evenly divide the time. Hmmm... (I was very impressed with her knowledge of musicality.)
And, both Lauré and Skippy addressed Tango in their books and studios.
Skippy is known primarily for WCS, but had a bunch of material on Country Western in her book from the mid 90s. Most of the content of that book is at the web site at the above url.
There is a small amount of info in "tango" in that book. There was more in her 1978 book. Of course people would say, it's not Argentine tango.