Traffic declining?

[sixela]

Well, what i was trying to say is that while familiarity certainly is a factor (and it is probably very rate that a follower will develop strong basic technique without being exposed to some vocabulary), i think that thinking of it as an important factor in my opinion not a good idea.

No argument from me. But this exchange started from my rebuttal for the claim that absolutely everything could be led unambiguously.

So i would say a gancho, or a saccada should flow from basic movement.

Everything should. If it doesn't then it's never going to feel good. But unfamiliarity, as I said, will lead some followers to 'correct' what they perceive as "syntax errors" instead of following the flow and ending up where they may (and trusting you not to endanger them). In so doing, they'll actually move against the natural flow, but that's because they'll perceive it as the only option.

Yesterday we just went to see some people on a very, very steep skating ramp, and I was amazed to see people hurling themselves face down towards concrete 4 meters deeper than themselves. Guess what, if they didn't, then they'd fall and hurt themselves really badly. Preservation instinct is a good thing to have, but it's not always right.

When followers replace basic technique in these things with "knowing the signals" things get dangerous

That attitude never survives one song of a tanda with me. I have a mean streak, an almost irresistible urge to do what is not expected of me when I feel that happens (it often becomes very creative because the urge takes me to places where I really haven't got a clue as to what comes next, which means I only have the music and the connection to rely on, plus instinct).

That usually fixes the problem after one dance (the follower abandons all hope of guessing what comes next and reverts to the basics again) or creates a follower who'll never dance with me again. "Ça passe ou ça casse", but I'm not going to be a bus driver on a set tour.

 

[LoveTango]

There are 87 people viewing this forum as I write: that seems quite busy, but I agree that there hasn't been the usual volume of discussion recently.

I view way more than post.
I also hope to be able to read more, however, I often shy away from posting because I am not confident that people would want to read what I would say.
For example, just a couple of weeks ago, I started a thread. I understand it would be good if I at least follow up with people's response, but I was afraid that adding to it would keep the thread on top (I think it is not a very meaningful thread). So I let go. Do you think it is rude not to follow up?

 

[Zoopsia59]

I view way more than post.
I also hope to be able to read more, however, I often shy away from posting because I am not confident that people would want to read what I would say.
For example, just a couple of weeks ago, I started a thread. I understand it would be good if I at least follow up with people's response, but I was afraid that adding to it would keep the thread on top (I think it is not a very meaningful thread). So I let go. Do you think it is rude not to follow up?

I think the forum "belongs" to you just as much as it belongs to any other poster, and you should post without fear.

Personally, I think you have been a valuable addition to the forum.

 

[LoveTango]

I personally don't really think that a follower should have to be familiar with what one tries to lead to make it leadable - my personal philosophy is currently pretty much that the movement should flow almost inevitably from the lead, and that things that don't are tricks, and have as such as much to do with good leading and following as wearing a suit does or not - it can decorate ones dance nicely, but it is not the substance. A lot of pretty standard things are part of that, e.g. i think that the much discussed cross is partially a trick. While having a shared vocabulary is nice i don't think it is the core of great dancing. E.g. i have a bunch of el pulpo moves in the dustier corners of my dance, and while they are sometimes a lot of fun to try with followers who might have been exposed to his ideas i don't think that has anythign to do with the quality of the dance.
...

I agree with you, Gssh. I want to push it further. A follower with good technique should be able to follow a well executed lead even if it is a move she never experienced before.

 

[LoveTango]

I think the forum "belongs" to you just as much as it belongs to any other poster, and you should post without fear.

Personally, I think you have been a valuable addition to the forum.

You know what, Zoops, I usually agree with you nearly a hundred percent. I can write this after each one of your post.

 

[sixela]

I agree with you, Gssh. I want to push it further. A follower with good technique should be able to follow a well executed lead even if it is a move she never experienced before.

A follower with perfect technique and an infinite supply of trust plus familiarity with all the possible elements in the dance...

Aren't we being a bit too demanding? We aren't dancing with the Platonic ideal of a follower, and I'm sure none of us is the Platonic ideal of a leader either .

I used to believe in exactly what Gss and you profess to believe in. But let's just say that with age, I've learned to treat overly simple ideologies as general guiding principles and not universal truths. Some can be made to be universal truths only by ignoring many subtle aspects of reality or pretending these don't exist...

If absolutely everything was to be led, then all followers would in theory be interchangeable, and there would be no room for interpretation at all. Yet no two followers are alike, and the main difference is the way they respond to the lead or influence it. That's interpretation, and the fine line between interpretation and not following isn't one you can unambiguously draw in the sand.

Clearly, auto-ochoing is at the "not following" end of the spectrum, and non-intrusive adornos are at the "interpretation" end.

But what about adornos that the follower does but for which she demands the time by influencing the rythm, purposeful 'hesitation', the decisions as to where a follower places her COG within the space allowed by the lead, the pace at which a (led) transition from a V-embrace to a more parallel one or vice-versa, the amount of dissociation, even the takeover of the lead (which is not "backleading")...?

Some leaders will love playfulness in all these areas and give the follower a lot of breathing room, others will treat it as "not-following" and demand the follower does exactly what is expected and nothing more.

 

[AndaBien]

...Some leaders will love playfulness in all these areas and give the follower a lot of breathing room, others will treat it as "not-following" and demand the follower does exactly what is expected and nothing more.

I personally appreciate a follower who brings something additional to the dance. I don't want her to interfere with the dance I'm trying to give her - well, not very often - but I like my partner to contribute. I think it would be boring to always have only whatever dance I bring to the floor.

 

[jantango]

I bring my energy, my love of the music, my love for the dance, my intuition, and an open heart to share with every dance partner.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I personally appreciate a follower who brings something additional to the dance. I don't want her to interfere with the dance I'm trying to give her - well, not very often - but I like my partner to contribute. I think it would be boring to always have only whatever dance I bring to the floor.

The problem is that one man's "interfering" is another man's "contributing" and vice versa. Followers try to adapt to the expectations of different leaders, but eventually it's easier to just dance whatever way seems most natural for us, and some leaders will like us and others won't.

 

[rbazsz]

The audience here could be broadened to include all types of Tango. Only talking about Argentine Tango seems very limiting.

 

[Peaches]

Um...it is the Argentine Tango forum.

 

[pygmalion]

I wasn't going to say that, but now that you mention it ... :wink:

 

[AndaBien]

The audience here could be broadened to include all types of Tango. Only talking about Argentine Tango seems very limiting.

Most of us consider AT to be very different from other types of tango.

 

[rbazsz]

Most of us consider AT to be very different from other types of tango.

Yes, they are different, but they are still in the same genre of dance. Think about how many different types of swing there is -- and yet there is one forum for all swings.

Perhaps AT dancers should stop being so exclusive.

 

[bastet]

Better not to feed the trolls, as anyone who dances AT in depth will know exactly why they are not the same genre no matter else we may or may not agree on....no need to preach to the choir.... (not dissing any other dances, as I have done most of them by now and have a healthy respect for them, but just sayin'....)