Types of Tangueros: The Good, the Bad, and a myriad of Jerks

[jennyisdancing]

Good for you! And yes, you're right. How indeed can you improve by avoiding milongas. Six months into the dance I went straight from class to milonga and never once attended a practica. Also, worry not about your limited steps. Believe you me, my favourite dancer who always leaves me breathless and panting for more (of all of him) keeps his steps oh so simple but his sense of musicality is superb and we just melt into each other's bodies when we dance. Think, "feeling" rather than "doing".

Hear hear, Heather!
I agree, that's what it's all about - but apparently not everyone does. I love the music and can feel it in my soul but most of our better leaders won't dance with me, because they will have to limit their steps due to my beginner status.

As to how one is supposed to improve without attending milongas - I've talked to some fellow dancers and found out quite a few of them spend a lot of time and money on classes, including many private lessons. Then they can show up to a dance already having great skills. That is not an option for me financially, so I just go to as many milongas as I can afford, and hope for the best.

I posted some of these thoughts in another forum, but the bias against beginners seems more pronounced in AT. It is the only dance that I do where some leaders, when starting to dance with me, actually ask me how many lessons I have had.

 

[Heather2007]

Hear hear, Heather!
I agree, that's what it's all about - but apparently not everyone does. I love the music and can feel it in my soul but most of our better leaders won't dance with me, because they will have to limit their steps due to my beginner status.

As to how one is supposed to improve without attending milongas - I've talked to some fellow dancers and found out quite a few of them spend a lot of time and money on classes, including many private lessons. Then they can show up to a dance already having great skills. That is not an option for me financially, so I just go to as many milongas as I can afford, and hope for the best.

I posted some of these thoughts in another forum, but the bias against beginners seems more pronounced in AT. It is the only dance that I do where some leaders, when starting to dance with me, actually ask me how many lessons I have had.

These "better leaders" who you say that won't dance with you I can guarantee are not good dancers if they adopt such an attitude. And truly, those who overwhelmed me some years ago, I dance with today and I think, "why did I ever think he was so good. He isn't". So forget what you are seeing and go by how you feel. (Yep, dare I say it. Very much like having s*x. If it doesn't feel good for (either one of) you then something is not being done right. And trust me, further down the line you will get to dance with some of these guys and think, "why on earth did I ever think he was that good".

I know many will disagree but a good class run by a good teacher a couple fo times a week together with attending milongas and setting aside a 20 or so minutes at home by yourself working on the walk, ochos, giros, balance etc is all that you need. Privare tuition is good if you can afford it, but frankly, the private student I have seen doesn't necessary make a better dancer over one who attends large classes. (This I have definitely seen).

In the beginning, the occasional guy used to ask me the same question - how many lessons have I had I always replied, "how many lessons have you had in learning to be an prat" (British slang for idiot or a*sehole). My attitude then and now is that I don't need a dance that badly to accept an insult. But I tell you what, it does give you a good feeling when further down the line when same "prat" is now eyeing you up for a dance and you do an immediate u-turn when you see him approaching. Allow no room for disgraceful behaviour and just use it as a tool to get better and then later on a worthy weapon

 

[jennyisdancing]

These "better leaders" who you say that won't dance with you I can guarantee are not good dancers if they adopt such an attitude. And truly, those who overwhelmed me some years ago, I dance with today and I think, "why did I ever think he was so good. He isn't". So forget what you are seeing and go by how you feel. (Yep, dare I say it. Very much like having s*x. If it doesn't feel good for (either one of) you then something is not being done right. And trust me, further down the line you will get to dance with some of these guys and think, "why on earth did I ever think he was that good".

I know many will disagree but a good class run by a good teacher a couple fo times a week together with attending milongas and setting aside a 20 or so minutes at home by yourself working on the walk, ochos, giros, balance etc is all that you need. Privare tuition is good if you can afford it, but frankly, the private student I have seen doesn't necessary make a better dancer over one who attends large classes. (This I have definitely seen).

In the beginning, the occasional guy used to ask me the same question - how many lessons have I had I always replied, "how many lessons have you had in learning to be an prat" (British slang for idiot or a*sehole). My attitude then and now is that I don't need a dance that badly to accept an insult. But I tell you what, it does give you a good feeling when further down the line when same "prat" is now eyeing you up for a dance and you do an immediate u-turn when you see him approaching. Allow no room for disgraceful behaviour and just use it as a tool to get better and then later on a worthy weapon

Love your advice! Very helpful and reassuring. Unfortunately "a good class run by a good teacher a couple times a week" is still out of my budget. AT Classes are expensive so I'm not taking any right now, but hope to resume them early next year. Meanwhile, I definitely do practice my walk & other moves at home.

 

[Ampster]

It is the only dance that I do where some leaders, when starting to dance with me, actually ask me how many lessons I have had.

I would venture to say that these puported "better leads" who do this are not as good as they think they are. I'd clump them in as either one of the "Hot-shot wanna be Jerks," or the "Aspiring teacher jerk."

It's not your skill that's lacking, its his. Some day you'll be better than he.

I would also echo Heather's advice. She speaks the truth.

 

[Steve Pastor]

I am interested in the abilities not only of any current partner, but my partner's teachers. I have been known to ask people who they are taking lessons from. I have some idea who teaches what in my area, and I find it interesting to keep up on any changes in their approach to teaching. There is a fair amount of consitency in what kind of dancer the various teachers have been turning out. Then, too, there are people who have recently set themselves up as teachers, and I like to get some idea of what they are doing.

 

[jennyisdancing]

I would venture to say that these puported "better leads" who do this are not as good as they think they are. I'd clump them in as either one of the "Hot-shot wanna be Jerks," or the "Aspiring teacher jerk."

It's not your skill that's lacking, its his. Some day you'll be better than he.

I would also echo Heather's advice. She speaks the truth.

And may I add that I don't want to come off as a constant whiner, though it does feel good to vent on here . There are some wonderful leaders out there and I want to say thanks to those who dance with me. I know a couple of them who fall in that Patient Mentor category and then some.

One of them, especially, is such a joy. I met him at a milonga last month. His lead felt absolutely effortless and I was able to follow nearly everything. He had great musicality too, and really worked those pauses. And he kept complimenting me and saying how much he enjoyed dancing with me. I believed him because he didn't just do one "charity dance" with me, he asked me many times. What a delight! I hope I see him at the next milonga this weekend.

 

[Steve Pastor]

"If I avoid milongas, how can I improve?"
The Practica is there specifically to provide an opportunity to practice. Take advantage of any opportunity before or after class for instance, to get in some practice time. Obviously, if there is not a practica for you to go to, you have to go to milongas.

"Or should I only dance with follows or instructors from my class?"
At one time Alex Krebs would talk about groups of new students as being in the same "pod" (reference to groups of whales). But you want to branch out, too.

"I have attended one milonga and I thought I did alright but after reading this, I'm wondering if I was boring / frustrating the daylights out of the more experienced follows. I did tell them I was a beginner when I asked them to dance though."

Keep in mind too, that there are people in your community that will derive satisfaction from watching you get better. First you have to find them. Me, I made sure I didn't over stay my welcome, and I think it worked out for both of us.
Remember that the etiquette of the milonga practically requires you and your partner to dance an entire tanda, usually 3-4 songs. You could ask people to dance "one or two" with you. Always watch your partner to see how they are reacting to your partnership. You could even ask them if they want to continue, after the first song. Or say something like, "Would you like to take a break?"
Or, you could wait until one, two or three songs have been played in the tanda, then ask. Your partner will only be "obligated" to dance with you until the cortina.
(BTW, I think the tanda system is one reason beginners feel that more experienced dancers aren't welcoming.)
Personally, I lean towards more communication, rather than less. So go ahead and tell prospective partners that you are a beginner. If you keep working on it, somewhere along the line, you will start hearing things like, "I thought you said you were a beginner". And that's going to feel pretty good.

 

[Heather2007]

Love your advice! Very helpful and reassuring. Unfortunately "a good class run by a good teacher a couple times a week" is still out of my budget. AT Classes are expensive so I'm not taking any right now, but hope to resume them early next year. Meanwhile, I definitely do practice my walk & other moves at home.

And you know what, much of my learning - after the first few months in a class, that is - took (takes) place at home. In the kitchen. Alone. With the music playing loudly from the lounge and tons of creatiev mental visualiation :razz:

 

[cornutt]

In the beginning, the occasional guy used to ask me the same question - how many lessons have I had

Hmm. The question was phrased tactlessly, but it's quite possible that the intentions were good. When I ask a lady I haven't met or seen dance before for a dance, I sometimes ask (after we have started dancing) an innocent-sounding question like, "So, how long have you been dancing?" What I'm trying to do is ascertain her approximate experience level so that I know how to arrange the dance and what I can and can't lead with her. Sometimes I can tell (if her frame is all awkward and she moves her hips in weird ways as she steps, then she's probably a beginner), but not always.

If I try to dance over her head, she's going to get frustrated at not being able to follow, and chances are either she'll get angry at me or she'll get down on herself. Either way, it doesn't make for a good dance for either of us. If I guess wrong in the other direction, then she's probably going to get bored, and may feel that I've insulted her by implying that she is a poor dancer. If I ask a question gently, then I have a much better chance of avoiding these improprieties.

So if ask the question, gently and with tact, and my partner takes that as an offense, then I'm stuck. I'm unlikely to give her a pleasing dance no matter what I do.

 

[jennyisdancing]

Hmm. The question was phrased tactlessly, but it's quite possible that the intentions were good. When I ask a lady I haven't met or seen dance before for a dance, I sometimes ask (after we have started dancing) an innocent-sounding question like, "So, how long have you been dancing?" What I'm trying to do is ascertain her approximate experience level so that I know how to arrange the dance and what I can and can't lead with her. Sometimes I can tell (if her frame is all awkward and she moves her hips in weird ways as she steps, then she's probably a beginner), but not always.

If I try to dance over her head, she's going to get frustrated at not being able to follow, and chances are either she'll get angry at me or she'll get down on herself. Either way, it doesn't make for a good dance for either of us. If I guess wrong in the other direction, then she's probably going to get bored, and may feel that I've insulted her by implying that she is a poor dancer. If I ask a question gently, then I have a much better chance of avoiding these improprieties.

So if ask the question, gently and with tact, and my partner takes that as an offense, then I'm stuck. I'm unlikely to give her a pleasing dance no matter what I do.

cornutt, I was talking to my (former) teacher about this situation and asked him how he handles it. He says he never verbally asks the lady how many lessons she has had. He just starts dancing with her, and begins with doing very simple steps. If she is able to follow that well, then he can try other steps. If not, he just sticks to basics.

That seems like the best approach to me. You really have to dance with the person to gauge their abilities. The other thing you could do is to observe. When you take a rest and sit out, you can watch the ladies and get a better idea of their skills. Also you could engage a lady in casual conversation about your respective dance backgrounds, but only while off the dance floor. Personally I find that it makes me tense up when someone starts out a dance by quizzing me.

 

[cornutt]

cornutt, I was talking to my (former) teacher about this situation and asked him how he handles it. He says he never verbally asks the lady how many lessons she has had. He just starts dancing with her, and begins with doing very simple steps. If she is able to follow that well, then he can try other steps. If not, he just sticks to basics.

Well, that's all well and good until I get to a step she doesn't know. At least half the time, that blows the deal.

 

[jennyisdancing]

Well, that's all well and good until I get to a step she doesn't know. At least half the time, that blows the deal.

Yes, and that's going to happen. You could have a lady read through a checklist of steps before you dance with her, and have her tick off the ones she knows. But even that wouldn't guarantee anything. People make mistakes. It could be her, it could be you, it could be both of you. Just laugh it off and go on. It really doesn't matter if your dancing is perfect. The important thing is to connect with your partner and have fun.

 

[bastet]

Well, that's all well and good until I get to a step she doesn't know. At least half the time, that blows the deal.

I tend to agree with you, though if I am leading I will often do the start with the simple steps first method. As a follower, I sometimes (VERY nicely) will ask someone how long they have been dancing when I dance with them, even when I have watched them dance with others before I get a chance to dance with them. It doesn't always follow that a person with lots of years of experience will have excellent skills, nor someone who has been dancing only a short while have terrible ones. But sometimes it helps me to know how we might "mesh". I won't ask this kind of question if the person is stand-offish or seems like they might be easily offended (in fact- I stay away from dancing with people like that in general. I like my partners friendly- thank you.)

Given that- I would suppose it would have to depend on the person and your best guess at how they react to it whether to ask. I'd hate to think it should be a verboten topic- it could turn in to a fun conversation! (And that's usually how it goes for me..we start talking about workshops and favorite teachers.) Seems like it could turn out as a damned of you do or don't situation in either case...if you don't ask...you might not try some things you might if you otherwise know someone's experience...if you do ask and they are offended...well...

 

[jennyisdancing]

I would suppose it would have to depend on the person and your best guess at how they react to it whether to ask. I'd hate to think it should be a verboten topic- it could turn in to a fun conversation! (And that's usually how it goes for me..we start talking about workshops and favorite teachers.)

exactly bastet...of course it's great to have a pleasant, friendly conversation sharing knowledge about workshops and teachers. Nothing verboten about that.

That's a far cry from asking someone to dance and then saying "how many lessons have you had?" (using exactly those words.) I've noticed that the people who say that are always the ones in the "wannabe teacher jerk" category who then proceed to lecture me on how I am doing everything wrong. The nice people, if they want to get a sense of someone's dancing level, will say things like "so, I haven't seen you at this milonga before. Have you been dancing long?"

 

[Peaches]

Oh, hell. I'm sure I must have offended plenty of leads. Asking how long someone has been dancing is a rather frequent question of mine. A) I'm not good at small talk, and B) I'm usually very curious. Not because it's necessarily tied to ability (I've gotten responses that have been way far off from what I'd have guessed--in both directions.), but because I'm just genuinely curious.

Meh. If someone's going to take offence...well...not much I can do about it.