What are DJs doing wrong

ArbeeNYC said:
...Is the sound appreciably better?
Click to expand...
No, it is worse!

1) The early vinyls from the late 50s and early 60s had no standardized equalization, each label had a proprietary curve. RIAA was slow to catch on. Corresponding preamps are very expensive, I don't know any vinyl DJs who travel with them around. For vinyl records from the 60s you also need spherical tips for the pickup cartridges, today you use elliptical ones.

2) In the 60s to 70s, the classical repertoire of the GA was uncritically transferred to vinyl and mixed amateurishly. Often excessive reverb was added and the dynamic range was compressed. The sound is anything but authentic.

3) But as already written before, many digital transfers are also bad if bad material was taken over and digitized without technical and historical knowledge. The chain is as strong as the weakest link.
 
Last edited:
opendoor said:
No, it is worse!

1) The early vinyls from the late 50s and early 60s had no standardized equalization, each label had a proprietary curve. RIAA was slow to catch on. Corresponding preamps are very expensive, I don't know any vinyl DJs who travel with them around. For vinyl records from the 60s you also need spherical tips for the pickup cartridges, today you use elliptical ones.

2) In the 60s to 70s, the classical repertoire of the GA was uncritically transferred to vinyl and mixed amateurishly. Often excessive reverb was added and the dynamic range was compressed. The sound is anything but authentic.

3) But as already written before, many digital transfers are also bad if bad material was taken over and digitized without technical and historical knowledge. The chain is as strong as the weakest link.
Click to expand...
If no good original copy exists, is it possible for a good sound engineer to improve the original poor quality sound using modern tools? Agree it won’t be original anymore more but the resulting sound quality can be far superior to poor mixing. I have no expertise and taking a wild guess. Yes it will be very painstaking to interpret and improve the originals to make them sound a lot better.
 
Bailango said:
If no good original copy exists, is it possible for a good sound engineer to improve the original poor quality sound using modern tools?
Click to expand...

The answer is often no, removing noise also removes some music so if there's a lot of noise it is unrepairable. We also can't fix instruments that sound incorrect because they were recorded with primitive technology.
 
Bailango said:
is it possible for a good sound engineer to improve the original poor quality sound using modern tools?
Click to expand...
Can't entirely 'fix', but more of sticking a plaster on using digital interpolation, effectively 'tickling' the area in the sound wave. You put in something based on the previous and post 'blip'. And, given that you extract some instruments, you can clean them up, adjust, and put them back together. It may be cleaner, but certainly not exactly how it [may have] sounded. The brain also adjusts what you hear. A lot of work and signal processing tech to go into that!
 
Brummbaer said:
Can't entirely 'fix', but more of sticking a plaster on using digital interpolation, effectively 'tickling' the area in the sound wave. You put in something based on the previous and post 'blip'. And, given that you extract some instruments, you can clean them up, adjust, and put them back together. It may be cleaner, but certainly not exactly how it [may have] sounded. The brain also adjusts what you hear. A lot of work and signal processing tech to go into that!
Click to expand...

That’s what I meant interpolating and extrapolating. Upscaling and downscaling the pitch, frequency, etc where it can be done. It is more akin to restoration work but would be very time consuming. Quicker way may be to record new music that tries to recreate the sound from GA in studio settings.

Then there is that famous case of AI finishing the 3rd or 4th movement of unfinished composition whose creator died after composing the first two movements. AI has improved a lot since then. May be AI models can be trained on a library of GA music and then be asked to generate specific songs as a copy.
 
Bailango said:
would be very time consuming
Click to expand...
Depends what signal processing kit you have to start: dedicated and readily adjustable signal processing or GPUs, and an understanding of what achieves the objective. And, of course, both some technical and artistic/musical ability. It's not too different fro image processing. Not beyond the big studios if motivated! I think there was someone in Canada(?) who offered a disc (or some storage; disc sounds dated) of cleaned up GA music. I seem to recall you could get Poema for free. There was also someone (ex-military, German?) who offered 'tickled tangos, vals and milonga' - for free. I seem to recall Google (?) had deleted/lost some of his files some years ago, but he was looking for someone to take over the website and the work. I think both were more meticulous manual cleanup. And, of course, there's software which does some of that on a PC - but it requires some dedication and an artistic/musical inclination.

AI - maybe.
 
Rabbit said:
Assuming the DJ is not playing from bad media, it's often the sound system. The best I ever heard GA recordings sound at a tango event was at a large international festival with professional audio setup (subwoofers and all) at their flagship milongas
Click to expand...
We have a couple of venues with good sound systems. Both have subwoofers. And one has a very good DJ. (The other rotates DJs.)
 
Rabbit said:
Assuming the DJ is not playing from bad media, it's often the sound system. The best I ever heard GA recordings sound at a tango event was at a large international festival with professional audio setup (subwoofers and all) at their flagship milongas
Click to expand...
Oh, I have to disagree with you! The best sound system (narrow system term) is worthless if it is operated incorrectly by the DJ and, above all, if it is not adapted to the acoustics of the room. And the last one changes with the filling of the dance floor, the humidity and the coats of the dancers at the entrance. Not to mention the bawling from the drunken participants. I probably get a better sound with my little Behringer Mini FBQ (with resonance detector) on poor speakers than many said DJs at the controls of a high-end system.
 
Last edited:
opendoor said:
The best sound system (narrow system term) is worthless if it is operated incorrectly by the DJ and, above all, if it is not adapted to the acoustics of the room. And the last one changes with the filling of the dance floor, the humidity and the coats of the dancers at the entrance.
Click to expand...
Certainly agree with that. Even placement of the speakers (I spent some early years modelling room and other acoustics).

A simple example is why auditoria have soft padding on seats. It's not just for audience comfort but to attempt to replicate the effects of a human body there so that you don't need to re-calibrate if there aren't many attendees.
 
Brummbaer said:
I think there was someone in Canada(?) who offered a disc (or some storage; disc sounds dated) of cleaned up GA music. I seem to recall you could get Poema for free. There was also someone (ex-military, German?) who offered 'tickled tangos, vals and milonga' - for free. I seem to recall Google (?) had deleted/lost some of his files some years ago, but he was looking for someone to take over the website and the work. I think both were more meticulous manual cleanup. And, of course, there's software which does some of that on a PC - but it requires some dedication and an artistic/musical inclination.
Click to expand...
Yes there are several free versions on his website. I did purchase one of his packages several years ago. The clean up is impressive.
 
Mr. Moustachio said:
Keith Elshaw

I have no connection to him.
Click to expand...
That's the one!

I found the other one from some work notes (Ingeneer**) Wolfgang Werner Köhler Tickled Tangos. Looks like he got his files back to download.

(**Ingeneer - from ingenuity, not engine - although the word history and roots are more complicated - and especially between European and 'English' concepts. I used to be titled a Toolsmith, as in The Mythical Man Month. Ingeneer implied someone who used their ingenuity to provide the appropriate tools for battles, war, etc. The Toolsmith provided the development, coding, configuration, test, deployment environment, etc which also required an understanding of the final software and hardware and some fairly novel solutions. Nowadays this is, sort of, DevOps)
 
You can come to terms with different dance styles to some extent, at least if there is enough space, but only one piece of music can be played at a time. I think a problem is that some DJs think there is a genuine justification for their choice from an imagined tradition. And then the play in T-T-V-T-T-M, even though that definitely didn't exist "back then", and what they choose is of course no longer "contemporary".

But the DJ still has to make his choice with personal conviction. I additionally rely on constant feedback from the organizer, in my opinion it is his job to collect directly or indirectly from the guests, and feedback from subjectively selected key players. But ultimately I can't please everyone. Anyone who doesn't like my end game powerplay with tangos from the 50's and 60's will just be at home earlier and get more healthy sleep. But I take turns with other DJs on a rotation...
 
Last edited:
itwillhappen said:
I additionally rely on constant feedback from the organizer, in my opinion it is his job to collect directly or indirectly from the guests, and feedback from subjectively selected key players.
Click to expand...
I think organisers in general should put a much greater deal of thought into who they invite to DJ. DJs - or at least experienced ones - have their own tastes and preferences which will influence their setlists to some degree, especially if they are also dancers. Therefore, organisers should consider if what the DJ tends to play fits into the kind of atmosphere they wish to have in the milonga, or if they are flexible enough to adapt to that. Like you said, the feedback from a (ideally) representative subset can only be beneficial.

Although this really depends on the dancers which frequent the milonga in question; the choice of DJ doesn't matter so much when they have little respect for the music, or dance in spite of it, not to it.
itwillhappen said:
Anyone who doesn't like my end game powerplay with tangos from the 50's and 60's will just be at home and get more healthy sleep. But I take turns with other DJs on a rotation...
Click to expand...
This is why I think having a healthy variety of DJs that have different styles (whatever that might mean) is good for a tango community in general. Any tango community whose DJs mostly stick to a particular theme or feel of music is doomed to mediocre musicality. Hearing the same type of music over and over again (even if it is your absolute favourite) just makes dancing uninspiring and insipid.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Dance Ads

Advertise on Dance Forums Reach dancers, teachers, studios, event organizers, and dance-friendly brands. View ad options
Back
Top