What are DJs doing wrong

[ArbeeNYC]

Piazzolla had a complicated relationship with dancers. he was active in the GA milonga scene, writing arrangements for Troilo and subsequently leading his own OT. he got tired of the people complaining his music was difficult to dance to and after disbanding the OT decided that he wasn't going to make musical compromises anymore for the sake of making it easy to dance to. When he said his music wasn't "dance music" we should understand it in this context. He would have fully understood that some people would dance to it, he just didn't want to be constrained by the expectations of dancers in a milonga. Of course many subsequent arrangements by other musical groups of Piazzolla's compositions do make compromises to a greater or lesser extent.

And well, when I play music for dancers, I compromise.

When I dance, I would prefer that whoever is playing does not compromise, because I don't need the compromises.

I can therefore sympathize with Piazzolla's frustration.

I'm familiar with Piazzola's history and development. However, I'll take him at his word, especially for his musical career after the GA and after he quit trying to make music for dancers at the local milongas. He had higher aspirations and, subsequently, wanted nothing to do with "tango dancers." I'm not sure what period of his work you're referring to but much of his work is scored for orchestras and written for the stage/music hall. I'm not too concerned with his frustration given his success. And I don't recall anyone playing his own OT's music at a milonga. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "compromise" though in the above context.

 

[Rabbit]

And I don't recall anyone playing his own OT's music at a milonga. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "compromise" though in the above context.

The compromises I speak of are the typical artistic ones between the original vision and what is commercially viable, in this case what is considered by the typical milonga attendee to be easy to dance to (or what the record company thinks is going to sell records). Sometimes the result is unsatisfactory from both perspectives, and I believe this to be the reason Piazzolla OT period was not successful. Many of Piazzolla's "non dance music" compositions turned out to be better dance music than what he composed and played during his OT period intentionally for dancing.

 

[opendoor]

....You can choreograph an interpretive dance.. even Piazzola..

You're mixing something up, "choreographed" close to "interpretive" makes no sense to me.

..but that does not make it tango Argentino..

Ah, you want to call the tango police?

Unfortunately, the Argentine tango is still a living thing and, as a cross-over, has been designed to be diverse since the beginning. A biological species also never is pure white or black. These are just the most extreme variants. And the wider the variation curve, the higher the species' ability to survive. Sorry, I assumed you lacked this knowledge, do you?

 

[opendoor]

..Sometimes the result is unsatisfactory from both perspectives ..be the reason Piazzolla OT ..was not successful..

I think the end of Piazzolla's OT was more complex:

-The fact that he ran away with the singer of his previous boss brought him publicity and his own record deal.

-Then there is Piazzolla's own correction of history when he said: "crush everything from that time". He wanted to get away from his own reputation as a talented producer of dance music. But precisely this radicalism always makes great artists.

-Least, I don't think the OT was unsuccessful, at all. I once saw a chart with sales figures. The fact that it is not played at milongas is due to that said brainwashing. By the way, thanks to Christian from Vienna, who digitized almost all of those shellacs.

 

[Bailango]

I have nothing but contempt for dancers who are arrogant enough to believe that they — or their feelings — are above the music. In that case, they may as well be dancing to the sound of one hand clapping.

Where are such dancers? I haven’t met them ime two most arrogant artists are found amongst the film makers and musicians. There are film makers who primary motive is to satisfy their own itch. Audience be damned. The same with certain musicians. They primary play for themselves and not the audience.

 

[pianistamediano]

Where are such dancers? I haven’t met them

Plenty of examples everywhere — little to no respect for the music, putting steps above the music, et cetera, et cetera.

There are film makers who primary motive is to satisfy their own itch. Audience be damned. The same with certain musicians. They primary play for themselves and not the audience.

It's fine if they're only doing it for themselves, and people happen to like it; but if they complain about how they're not earning money or how people don't like what they're doing, well, that's just really stupid.

There's way too much ego in people in the entertainment industry as it is right now.

 

[opendoor]

Where are such dancers? I haven’t met them..

But you should also know that behind this arrogance there is actually inability, limitation and lack of desire to develop. Such people justify their incompetence with the canonical interpretation of the holy tango revelation.

 

[Rabbit]

-Least, I don't think the OT was unsuccessful, at all. I once saw a chart with sales figures. The fact that it is not played at milongas is due to that said brainwashing.

I don't have those prejudices and mostly do not find the Piazzolla OT recordings inspiring, to be fair the poor sound quality doesn't help. The other orchestras such as Troilo and Pugliese also chose to play other Piazzolla compositions than the known recordings we have from this period, though, so I would argue that it didn't pass the test of time.

 

[opendoor]

do not find the Piazzolla OT recordings inspiring..

Partly agree, still there are some gems to find.

Fiorentino con Piazzolla ZIP

Francisco Fiorentino with Piazzolla (20) and Spitalnik (2) as orquesta leaders, 1945

tangotunes.com

I find the recording quality ok (it was Odeon, not Victor)!

 

[TTanguero]

Where are such dancers? I haven’t met them

Come to London. Wait for a song with an unmistakable pause. Observe all the whirling dervishes still whirling.

 

[opendoor]

..Wait for a song with an unmistakable pause. Observe all the whirling dervishes still whirling..

If the measure continues (inaudibly) during the break, you can continue dancing to it. Of course, when the measure stops, it looks funny when the dancers get out of rhythm when the music sets in again. I often continue to dance to the rhythmic early Biagis. And I often have the impression that the orchestra actually wasn't sure of its rhythm.

By the way, the teacher of my third teacher coined the saying: dance to the second violin, even if its not playing!

 

[TTanguero]

If the measure continues (inaudibly) during the break, you can continue dancing to it.

I'm not talking about single-beat gaps, where I agree you could dance the silent beat, but rather absolutely unmistakable pauses/suspensions.

 

[Brummbaer]

By the way, the teacher of my third teacher coined the saying: dance to the second violin, even if its not playing!

I think he stole that, and adapted it, from Gerardo Portalea (all good quotes are stolen)

Hay que bailar los silencios. Y los violines. Aunque no existan.
Man muß die Stille tanzen. Und die Violinen. Auch wenn keine da sind.
One must dance the silence. And the violins. Even when there are none there.

 

[opendoor]

I think he stole that, and..

No, I think that a student can carry on their teacher's motto. And Chiche Nuñez learned directly from Portalea and Turco Brahemcha. And that's why I place myself in this succession too. I worked intensively with Chiche for two years and in many privates I just sat and wrote down the stories from inside of Villa Urquiza with a notepad.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

in this case what is considered by the typical milonga attendee to be easy to dance to (or what the record company thinks is going to sell records).

I doubt that back then it was a question of being "easy to dance to" or not. Rather, I suspect it was more likely a question of popularity--was the music popular, did it diverge too much from other contemporary orchestras, did it attract a crowd. There are several factors that can lead to a drop in popularity that have nothing to do with its assumed difficulty. De Caro wasn't much of a success with dancers either in spite of his influence on musicians. He simply didn't have the gift.