What are DJs doing wrong

[ArbeeNYC]

Ah, you want to call the tango police?

Unfortunately, the Argentine tango is still a living thing and, as a cross-over, has been designed to be diverse since the beginning. A biological species also never is pure white or black. These are just the most extreme variants. And the wider the variation curve, the higher the species' ability to survive. Sorry, I assumed you lacked this knowledge, do you?

Clearly, we differ in our opinions. Sure, tango can evolve and has. However, it has evolved in a direction away from the traditional milonga and away from traditional GA music. It has been used (and abused) in a variety of professional and nonprofessional settings by dancers (trained and untrained). The "milonga" is an inherently GA concept, inherently traditional, and built around music of the period. There have been non-traditional milongas where non-traditional music is played and that is not a new phenomenon. They're called "alternative milongas" and have their own DJs and music. That's fine with me, just don't equate it with traditional tango (which is always Argentine) or the associated music. So, yes, it can evolve but it can also evolve into something entirely different and unrecognizable. Or even die out.

 

[Bailango]

But you should also know that behind this arrogance there is actually inability, limitation and lack of desire to develop.

Yes I chalk that up to incompetence. Not arrogance. Not everyone who is incompetent is arrogant. That their incompetence doesn’t inhibit them for coming to milongas or enjoy dancing doesn’t make them arrogant. The last statement is in response to @pianistamediano reply above the quoted post.

That doesn’t mean there aren’t arrogant people who dance.

Such people justify their incompetence with the canonical interpretation of the holy tango revelation.

The question is are they conscious of their incompetence. Dunning-Kruger effect is very real in dancing world. As is the opposite of that effect too.

To me arrogance is inherent in person’s make up. There are sports celebrity who are humble in person but arrogant in the way they play. To me that is not arrogance. Some people in the ronda dance arrogantly. They may be good dancers or not. But the original question was about arrogance in the context of music, from dancers.

 

[opendoor]

...The "milonga" is an inherently GA concept, inherently traditional..

No, you are not informed, the milonga is a new build. It was created in the 60s in the course of the privatization of tango. Factors included the decline of the big orchestras, the advent of the vinyl, and the ban on concerts. In the GA there was rarely (see the yellow pages of that time) a so-called "baile con grabaciónes", also some release parties of the labels, informal dancing to Victrolas in the barrios, and soirées in the better districts. Everything did not have the form, structure and codigos of the milonga. Also, milongas in 2000 (when I started) were very much different from milongas today.

 

[opendoor]

I doubt that back then it was a question of being "easy to dance to" ..Rather ..was more likely a question of popularity..

I fully agree with this. The tango craze at the beginning of the GA was a POP phenomenon. A new musical interpretation of tango attracted the masses. And these masses did not yet dance tango.

That's also the background of my (admittedly provocative) first post here on DF many years ago:

"the GA is the low point in tango history".

And I appreciate that you finally join my view

 

[Bailango]

I fully agree with this. The tango craze at the beginning of the GA was a POP phenomenon. A new musical interpretation of tango attracted the masses. And these masses did not yet dance tango.

That's also the background of my (admittedly provocative) first post here on DF many years ago:

"the GA is the low point in tango history".

And I appreciate that you finally join my view

My take is popular culture is what drives the craze. Only many years later in the rear view mirror it is looked upon as the golden age with rose tinted glasses. At height of a craze everything is in chaos and constantly evolving. We can take example of hip hop. It went from being an underground subculture to a very popular music and dance form. More people attend hip hop dance classes than tango classes. Today it is popular mass culture. Yet we already see narratives about the early days of hip hop and its evolution. The same about salsa revival in early 70s. What is whitewashed is that there was a lot of drugs, criminality, and other illegal activities associated with both. The past gets romanticized and inconvenient ugly facts are forgotten. Once it attains respectability and acceptance a more sanitized version emerges.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

No, you are not informed, the milonga is a new build. It was created in the 60s in the course of the privatization of tango. Factors included the decline of the big orchestras, the advent of the vinyl, and the ban on concerts. In the GA there was rarely (see the yellow pages of that time) a so-called "baile con grabaciónes", also some release parties of the labels, informal dancing to Victrolas in the barrios, and soirées in the better districts. Everything did not have the form, structure and codigos of the milonga. Also, milongas in 2000 (when I started) were very much different from milongas today.

Hold on. Who ever said that a milonga was equivalen to recorded music? One can have a milonga with an orchestra or band as well. Are you claiming that for the entire GA there were no milongas?

 

[ArbeeNYC]

And these masses did not yet dance tango.

But that is not correct. By 1930 (depends when you date the GA) tango was a popular dance.

 

[pianistamediano]

Yes I chalk that up to incompetence. Not arrogance. Not everyone who is incompetent is arrogant. That their incompetence doesn’t inhibit them for coming to milongas or enjoy dancing doesn’t make them arrogant. The last statement is in response to @pianistamediano reply above the quoted post.

That doesn’t mean there aren’t arrogant people who dance.

I'd just like to clarify that I don't mean beginners/newbies/newer tangueros, because it would just be unfair to tar them with the same brush.

Or, for that matter, people who treat tango just like any other social dance, and see it as more of a way to get to know people, interact with people, and have a good ol' time. Like a tea dance. If they see tango as such, I'd be happy if they moved with the music some of the time.

I just see so many dancers here who have been dancing for years, who are more than adequate in terms of technique, and they just have this ego and obsession with fancy movements - whether they can do them well or not is immaterial - that puts themselves above the music.

As far as I'm concerned, "incompetence" isn't an excuse - just dance to the rhythm, to simpler songs. I believe everyone can train their ears to at least hear that little. Rather, unfamiliarity with the music or lack of an ear for music is understandable and very much forgivable - as long as there is some sustained effort put into remedying these things in the present or the near future.

Otherwise, that isn't tango, or even dancing to music, that's just doing one movement after the other with another person.

Dancing just to the feeling is... well, I've recently had so many amazing tandas with the same follower because we feel so good to each other, but every movement of ours remains necessarily born from the music, and most definitely not because we want to hug each other tighter.

 

[opendoor]

This is often the DJ's fault for putting a song no one cares about at the start of the tanda.

As a DJ, I put the climax of the tanda on the last or last but one piece. As a dancer, I always found it terrible when the powder was shot with the first piece and the tanda wore off with each subsequent piece.

 

[pianistamediano]

As a dancer, I always found it terrible when the powder was shot with the first piece and the tanda wore off with each subsequent piece.

I find it completely ridiculous whenever the DJ puts the best song of the tanda first and follows it up with increasingly mediocre pieces. It just makes it a cheap way to get dancers onto the floor for each tanda — to make the DJ look good — at the cost of the dancers' enjoyment.

 

[Rabbit]

I find it completely ridiculous whenever the DJ puts the best song of the tanda first and follows it up with increasingly mediocre pieces. It just makes it a cheap way to get dancers onto the floor for each tanda — to make the DJ look good — at the cost of the dancers' enjoyment.

Well there shouldn't be mediocre songs in the tanda in the first place. But in my opinion a tanda should both start with a strong call to action and have a satisfying finish, and there are songs more suited to each position. I don't think everyone agrees on either the theory or the evaluation because I hear a lot of tandas where the composition makes little sense to me.

 

[JournalInTime]

Well there shouldn't be mediocre songs in the tanda in the first place. But in my opinion a tanda should both start with a strong call to action and have a satisfying finish, and there are songs more suited to each position. I don't think everyone agrees on either the theory or the evaluation because I hear a lot of tandas where the composition makes little sense to me.

There are some almost but not entirely forgotten orquestas that have insufficient not-mediocre pieces to fill a tanda, but one or two that people like enough to be worth playing. My feeling is that DJs should get over their fear of mixing orquestas in a tanda and fill out such tandas with good pieces by similar orquestas from the same period.

There are also odd-one-out tangos, like Café Domínguez, that don't really fit anywhere. Here, that specific tango is popular enough that you had better play it . . . but I've yet to experience it in a tanda that makes the least bit of sense to me.

All this helps me understand why some DJs have shifted from "traditional" four-piece tango tandas to three-piece ones, or even to two-piece ones intended to encourage the tango equivalent of speed-dating. (Yes, we have events or at least moments during events where DJs do that.) Even some orquestas I adore feel like they've overstayed their welcome with four pieces; the heavier Pugliese works are like that.

 

[pianistamediano]

All this helps me understand why some DJs have shifted from "traditional" four-piece tango tandas to three-piece ones, or even to two-piece ones intended to encourage the tango equivalent of speed-dating. (Yes, we have events or at least moments during events where DJs do that.) Even some orquestas I adore feel like they've overstayed their welcome with four pieces; the heavier Pugliese works are like that.

I dislike it personally, and I consider it a fast-food approach to tango; but I defer to the organisers whenever they wish for me to play three-song tandas.

Two-song tandas sound horrible, and very much encourage the idea of quantity over quality. Even if it's meant to give everyone more chances for dances, it's also twice the number of potential tandas to be sitting out. I prefer the idea of having one/two rotating tandas, where partners are switched every song, and the aim is to dance with someone you've never danced with before.

My own (selfish?) reasoning is this: just one tanda with followers I love dancing with isn't enough, so reducing the number of songs in a tanda just reduces the time I spend dancing with them, and I hate that.

You have a point about overstaying their welcome, though; I find myself thoroughly bored by the third song of a less-than-perfect Tanturi tanda (if I bother to dance it), Troilo/Marino, or a badly composed Pugliese/Chanel, Rodriguez/Moreno or D'Agostino/Vargas tanda for example. Some late Pugliese, too.

 

[JournalInTime]

I dislike it personally, and I consider it a fast-food approach to tango; but I defer to the organisers whenever they wish for me to play three-song tandas.

Oh, I definitely prefer four-piece tandas! I'd prefer that milonga and vals tandas have four pieces, too . . . I've never really understood why they're three pieces. However, some orquestas – or some works by some orquestas – really, truly don't stand up to that.

I prefer the idea of having one/two rotating tandas, where partners are switched every song, and the aim is to dance with someone you've never danced with before.

I'd love it if more organizers had the guts to play partner-switching games.

I think that within a tanda, it's rough! I just had a conversation with a follower, in which I explained that I need more than one tango to adapt between partners. For me, the first tango in a tanda is all too often close to disposable for that reason.

However, rather than two- and three-piece tandas, I'd love to see things like "Leaders put your names in the hat. Now followers draw names," "Followers put your names in the hat. Now leaders draw names," and even blindfold invitations with a reveal at the end. Not all evening, and maybe not for more than one or two tandas, but once in a while. Use Halloween, the International Day of Tango, or Gardel's birthday as an excuse if you must. Bring fun back to tango, which is often far too serious and formal for its own good.

You have a point about overstaying their welcome, though; I find myself thoroughly bored by the third song of a less-than-perfect Tanturi tanda (if I bother to dance it), Troilo/Marino, or a badly composed Pugliese/Chanel, Rodriguez/Moreno or D'Agostino/Vargas tanda for example. Some late Pugliese, too.

My issue with a lot of the later, "radio tango" music isn't that it's bad – on the contrary, I adore it and love the challenge of dancing it. It's that the pieces are long and, being composed as much as or more for listening as for dancing, often difficult to interpret well for any length of time. Sticking to length, I think that if your three-piece tanda is as long as any four-piece one from the Golden Age, it's best to stop at three. By the same logic, though, if a three-piece milonga or vals tanda blows through in the time it would take to dance two tangos, maybe consider adding a fourth piece.

 

[pianistamediano]

I'd prefer that milonga and vals tandas have four pieces, too . . . I've never really understood why they're three pieces.

Vals, yes! They are often too short, especially the Biagi valses. As for milongas, well, an example of an archetypal milonga tanda could be:

La milonga de Buenos Aires
No hay tierra como la mía
Reliquias Porteñas

At least the way I dance milongas, I'd already be exhausted from dancing these three relatively high-tempo pieces. Maybe for the more relaxed ones like Milonga Sentimental, Milonga Criolla, I'd play four.

I think that within a tanda, it's rough! I just had a conversation with a follower, in which I explained that I need more than one tango to adapt between partners. For me, the first tango in a tanda is all too often close to disposable for that reason.

Aye - I did say that I preferred having those "rotating" tandas over shorter tandas, but I still dislike them because there's not enough time to adapt to your partner. It's still a better option than shorter tandas, I believe. No easy solution.

With regards to length of a tanda (which I try to keep to less than 12 minutes when DJing), I still find myself unsatisfied after just three late Troilo instrumentals, so it's definitely a personal thing.