Do you want the musician's explanation, or the non-musician's explanation? The latter is more complicated....
Well, lets start with the non-musician's one then....
What are the differences between Murga, Candombe and Milonga?
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Well, lets start with the non-musician's one then....
Tango Bellingham
New Member
Tell 'ya what I'm gonna do - let me drop an email to a few musician buddies down in Buenos Aires and get their take on what distinguishes milonga, candombe, and murga rhythmically from each other. They're both studying bandoneon at different conservatories down there, so they may have a unique perspective.
I can look at the musical notation for the scores I have, including some modern compositions by Máximo Diego Pujol, the contemporary Argentine composer who uses a lot of these rhythms, but to explain it "in layperson's terms" may take a bit of research. Give me a day or so and I'll see what I can come up with - if there are any specific questions that you need answered, post 'em here and the ones I can't answer I'll send on to Ben and Bertram.
I can look at the musical notation for the scores I have, including some modern compositions by Máximo Diego Pujol, the contemporary Argentine composer who uses a lot of these rhythms, but to explain it "in layperson's terms" may take a bit of research. Give me a day or so and I'll see what I can come up with - if there are any specific questions that you need answered, post 'em here and the ones I can't answer I'll send on to Ben and Bertram.
Peaches
Well-Known Member
Funny, I've been told different. What I was told is that it has a lot to do with when the music was written. For the oldest music, it was as you said. As time passed, more things were written in 4/4.
*shrug* (see sig line...)
Peaches
Well-Known Member
Fox trot is also 4/4. Lots of things are. 4/4 is called "common meter" for a reason. Chas are 4/4, hustles are 4/4, I think salsas are 4/4. Lots of things... It's how things are orchestrated, and accented, and phrased, and the tempo that makes all the difference.
(DH and I actually have a standing debate as to the necessity of having a meter at all. I don't see much of a value to it, except as a shorthand. A very useful shorthand, but a shorthand nonetheless. Anything that it does, so far as I can see, can be accomplished by notations of tempo, phrasing, accents and the like. It's a fun debate we have.)
Tango Bellingham
New Member
And who told you different?
If any of my Argentine buddies contradict what I wrote, I'll post a clarification.I just sent an email to Ben down in Buenos Aires. I'll also contact my friend Bertram Levy, also in B.A., and see what he says. Soon as TodoTango comes back up (some kind of .NET exception being thrown when I try to pull up the scores) I'll check La Bordona and some of the late Pugliese stuff.
And you forgot to add "snarky" to your sig [g, r, & d]
Oh good... I'm not delusional or suffering from early onset of dementia!
Most probably, the music I'm listening to is from the period you are referring to which is why it definitely feels like 4/4 to me rather than 2/4.
That's what I thought....
Angel HI
Well-Known Member
Yeah. And to TB's note on the downbeat being the 1; I agree with what you posted, but, as a percussionist, have also known the downbeat to be 2,3, and/or 6.
Peaches
Well-Known Member
It was a prospective (Argentine) teacher. I'm not saying you were wrong, I'm just saying that I've heard different things.And who told you different?
I just sent an email to Ben down in Buenos Aires. I'll also contact my friend Bertram Levy, also in B.A., and see what he says. Soon as TodoTango comes back up (some kind of .NET exception being thrown when I try to pull up the scores) I'll check La Bordona and some of the late Pugliese stuff.
And you forgot to add "snarky" to your sig [g, r, & d]
There was no snarkiness intended in my post. I would appreciate it if you would keep it out of yours.
I'm done with this forum. It's been fun, y'all.
Tango Bellingham
New Member
Milonga: remember Piazzolla's Libertango? It sounds like he's going, 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2, right? In 2/4 time, that's the dotted eighth-note, followed by a sixteenth-note tied to another eighth, followed by an eighth-note. Listen to Canaro's Milonga Sentimental, and when he starts the "bum, bah-DUM bum bum, bah-DUM bum", think 1-2-3(bum), 1(bah-)-2-3(DUM) 1-2(bum), which is slightly different, but the same subdivisions of time.
Dang, this is hard to explain without using notation.
Perhaps if you know of a score on TodoTango that we could look at?
I know that proabably most readers don't read music, but some of us do (sort of).
I'm going to look for Libertango.
What you are describing isn't habanera??? which just happens to have 2 descriptions... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habanera_(music)
Nope, TodoTango doesn't have it.
I know that proabably most readers don't read music, but some of us do (sort of).
I'm going to look for Libertango.
What you are describing isn't habanera??? which just happens to have 2 descriptions... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habanera_(music)
Nope, TodoTango doesn't have it.
Tango Bellingham
New Member
Does the Scores section of TodoTango work for you? I keep getting a .NET exception when I try to pull up La bordona or anything else except Por una Cabeza in both FireFox and Safari. Weird....
Here's a description of the habanera - look it up on the frame to the left. http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/
Of course, it doesn't have a musical example
confused, but it does mention it's in 2/4 time with a dotted rhythm. And here's the wikipedia entry to the aria, complete with score:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habanera_(aria)
I don't know if any of the old tango scores have made it into the public domain yet or been put online, so we may have to rely on TodoTango, or get one of our buddies to run over to Zivals and pick up the sheet music.
I found that you have to click on the arrow on the left of the name of the score. If I click on the name itself, I get some sort of "can't load the page" message.
The arrow works, though, in Explorer.
In Opera the arrow doesn't work, but the name does!
Google Chrome... is being weird???
Wait, same as Explorer, arrow works, name doesn't.
The arrow works, though, in Explorer.
In Opera the arrow doesn't work, but the name does!
Google Chrome... is being weird???
Wait, same as Explorer, arrow works, name doesn't.
Tango Bellingham
New Member
Rhythm update
Ok, I got an update from Bertram down in Buenos Aires. Things are starting to make a little more sense.
As to the tango scores we've seen being written in 2/4 and 4/8, he said that after Eduardo Arolas (1892-1924) came on the scene, the tangos started being played as though they were 4/4. I guess that's where Alex got his marcato in 4 from, with the emphasis changing from strong-weak-strong-weak marcato in 2 that would later be Di Sarli's and Pugliese's signature feel, to the march-like even-4 that we associate with Canaro, and later, with D'Arienzo and others.
Milonga is the 3,3,2 pattern I described earlier.
Candombe is a little more complicated - Bertram said it was hard to describe over the internet. Based on what he said, it's a polyrhythm - two different feels superimposed on top of each other. It's dotted quarter-notes all the way through! He says it's mostly played across the river in Uruguay.
I look at Pujol's score and I see something slightly different - a dotted eighth followed by a sixteenth tied to a quarter note. Still a weird syncopation, but hey...at least we have someplace to start.
I'll check with my other friend Claudio Mendez - he writes candombes, so he's bound to know (I hope). But I'll have to look up how to say the music terminology in castellano....:shock: [gulp!]
BTW, I finally got La Bordona to load, and it's 4/8. Go figure.... :shock:
Ok, I got an update from Bertram down in Buenos Aires. Things are starting to make a little more sense.
As to the tango scores we've seen being written in 2/4 and 4/8, he said that after Eduardo Arolas (1892-1924) came on the scene, the tangos started being played as though they were 4/4. I guess that's where Alex got his marcato in 4 from, with the emphasis changing from strong-weak-strong-weak marcato in 2 that would later be Di Sarli's and Pugliese's signature feel, to the march-like even-4 that we associate with Canaro, and later, with D'Arienzo and others.
Milonga is the 3,3,2 pattern I described earlier.
Candombe is a little more complicated - Bertram said it was hard to describe over the internet. Based on what he said, it's a polyrhythm - two different feels superimposed on top of each other. It's dotted quarter-notes all the way through! He says it's mostly played across the river in Uruguay.
I look at Pujol's score and I see something slightly different - a dotted eighth followed by a sixteenth tied to a quarter note. Still a weird syncopation, but hey...at least we have someplace to start.
I'll check with my other friend Claudio Mendez - he writes candombes, so he's bound to know (I hope). But I'll have to look up how to say the music terminology in castellano....:shock: [gulp!]
BTW, I finally got La Bordona to load, and it's 4/8. Go figure.... :shock:
If you see this today, you might be able to hear this candombe at TodoTango.
(NOte TaodaoTango changes selections daily, and I can't find this in their library.)
http://www.todotango.com/english/las_obras/grabacion.aspx?id=3667
I keep reading about how the habanera rhythm makes you want to get up and dance (W.C. Handy thought this was true for blacks. Maybe...)
After listening to this, I know what they mean.
1. JUAN CARLOS CACERES - TOCA TANGO
Juan Carlos is a larger-than-life character, a real bear-like porteño with a growling voice and attitude through and through. He has been researching the history of Tango for over 30 years, and has recouped much of the African influence in the music. Tocá Tangó tells the story of how blacks in Argentina would play the Tangó (the head of the drum to African slaves) in order to forget their sorrows - if they were lucky enough not to be sent to fight in the wars of independence from Spain, where most were to die.
(NOte TaodaoTango changes selections daily, and I can't find this in their library.)
http://www.todotango.com/english/las_obras/grabacion.aspx?id=3667
I keep reading about how the habanera rhythm makes you want to get up and dance (W.C. Handy thought this was true for blacks. Maybe...)
After listening to this, I know what they mean.
1. JUAN CARLOS CACERES - TOCA TANGO
Juan Carlos is a larger-than-life character, a real bear-like porteño with a growling voice and attitude through and through. He has been researching the history of Tango for over 30 years, and has recouped much of the African influence in the music. Tocá Tangó tells the story of how blacks in Argentina would play the Tangó (the head of the drum to African slaves) in order to forget their sorrows - if they were lucky enough not to be sent to fight in the wars of independence from Spain, where most were to die.