What are the technical elements of a pleasant embrace?

[ArbeeNYC]

For those in USA you can diy at home by putting in the dryer with the dry clean kit from stores. Do it often enough.

My vests have dual layer. I also have single layer jackets with non inner lining. They are called deconstructed jackets. You can buy them at Uniqlo or Zara. They are light but look like suit jacket or blazer. Then I have under shirt and shirt over it. The advantage of wearing a jacket or vests is that follower doesn’t have to touch sweaty back.

When I feel sweaty I change the undershirt. May be the shirt too. I usually have 3 or 4 change shirts in my bag. I can change into a t-shirt and pull jacket over it. Or I could discard the jacket during the later half of the milonga after I changed the shirt. I never seen sweat stick to my vests or jackets.

Definitely not putting a good suit jacket in the dryer. Nope
Don't wear any deconstructed jackets but I don't shop at Uniqlo or Zara.
I'm fortunate in that I sweat very little, so I don't have to change anything. I'm stay cool and dry most of the time. It's my partners who are more often hot and sweaty.

 

[LadyLeader]

How is expensive taste related to stains? Are brands not staining significantly more expensive. I can’t recall having seen stains due to deodorant on anyone. Rarely see stains due to any reasons. When I have it is usually due to spilled drink or food. No biggie.

I am not interested about cloths so I don't pay much for a piece and I wash them at home so it is really an inexpensive part of my life. If a follower deo is leaving stains on my shoulder it is not a big thing.

That evening her deo caused stains on a black dress she tried (but did not buy and who else would?). It must have been the same for the leader shoulders that night.

(I am extra sensitive on this because I am using bandana and after a milonga light colors had a brown, black, green area on it, showing the different makeup products followers used. Today I choose materials with a higher camouflage value! )

 

[Be Present]

I am not interested about cloths so I don't pay much for a piece and I wash them at home so it is really an inexpensive part of my life. If a follower deo is leaving stains on my shoulder it is not a big thing.

That evening her deo caused stains on a black dress she tried (but did not buy and who else would?). It must have been the same for the leader shoulders that night.

(I am extra sensitive on this because I am using bandana and after a milonga light colors had a brown, black, green area on it, showing the different makeup products followers used. Today I choose materials with a higher camouflage value! )

I always spray a sealer on my makeup because I don’t want to get makeup on the leaders. I also think that some follower’s faces get more moist than mine and no sealer would hold up to that. It’s part of the dance. It’s like coming home from a date with a girlfriend’s makeup on your collar. It’s a nice reminder of the evening. Maybe not, but I do think it’s a consequence of the dance and leaders want followers to look as nice as possible.

Having said that, since we are mentioning sweating, there are leaders who sweat profusely. When i finish a tanda with them my hair on the right side is matted to my head from the sweat. This is annoying when I spent a lot of effort to lpok nice.

Look. It’s really warm in some rooms. People sweat different amounts. Some leaders are soaked, even ones who bring clean shirts. Leaders are dressed more warmly than followers. I take it as part of the dance… however…

I would prefer if leaders who sweat heavily would not press their face/head against mine while dancing close embrace. This seems almost like a no brainer, but it happens all the time.

I am interested in leader’s perspective; especially those who tend to perspire heavily. And how do others followers view this?

 

[pianistamediano]

Look. It’s really warm in some rooms. People sweat different amounts. Some leaders are soaked, even ones who bring clean shirts. Leaders are dressed more warmly than followers. I take it as part of the dance… however…

I would prefer if leaders who sweat heavily would not press their face/head against mine while dancing close embrace. This seems almost like a no brainer, but it happens all the time.

Then don't dance with them, it's simple!

 

[Be Present]

Then don't dance with them, it's simple!

Yes. That’s true.

But what if you really enjoy dancing with some followers who wear heavy makeup that transfers to your shirt? Or she sweats like this? Or she is a super nice person and if she asked you to dance (just go with me) you know she would be offended or hurt or whatever.

I have a difficult time saying no to cabeceos. For leaders who are turned down, how does it affect you? Do you ever ask the follower again? Do other followers have the same difficulty with turning leaders down?

 

[JournalInTime]

The limitations of the human body, of clothing, and of hygiene and cosmetic products inevitably arise in any dance where you spend 10-12 minutes at a time hugging another person, in a crowded room that as often as not lacks air conditioning. I suppose there are the privileged few who don't sweat much, or who always manage to dance in places with good air circulation and/or air conditioning, but that isn't most of us, most of the time. There are things one can control:

• Wear not merely a deodorant but an antiperspirant – and not just on your armpits, but also on the interior of your elbows, on your wrists just above the hand, and anywhere else you sweat. (Yeah, yeah, it's carcinogenic and you'll die.)

• Don't wear makeup, because even the best rubs off even if you believe you never put your face near your partner (you do . . . you might not realize it, but you do).

• Ditto hairspray. In addition to rubbing off, hair that's fixed in place makes you hotter and sweatier, and much of it triggers allergic reactions in others (as does most perfume). If you have lots of hair, simply tie it up or back. I'm a man with exceptionally long hair, but at the milonga, I look like a man with very short hair because I tie it.

• Wear clothing made from light natural fibers, not synthetics that don't breathe, and definitely not velvet (which is horrific in tango). I prefer bamboo, others swear by linen or cotton, but anything like polyester is deadly. "Technical cloth" is an exception, in that it's often synthetic but physically constructed to breathe, but I've yet to find attractive clothing made of it; I don't want to dance dressed like a hiker or a basketball player.

• Some people claim that undershirts, vests/waistcoats, or jackets create an absorbent layer, or at least keep sweat from reaching their partner. Your mileage may vary on that one. Me, if I wear one, two, or all three of those with a shirt, I get dangerously overheated and sweat so much from my head that my partner gets a literal, visible sweat shower. Not a good choice for me. I prefer just a shirt, and I'm not too proud to unbutton it to a near-1970s-disco extent to maximize cooling. What can I say . . . works for me.

• Maintain good head posture to minimize face contact. You won't avoid it, however much you think you will. I work very hard on this yet end up with makeup-covered faces and hairspray-laden hair smooshed against my face because my partners who supposedly don't like face contact make unconscious contact, including one who stopped dancing with me because she found it too sweaty . . . who literally mashes her face into every leader (yes, we gossip).

• Embrace lower than the upper back, perhaps at waist level. Heat rises, even in the body, and the higher your embrace, the more heat it traps to cause sweating. The very romantic "hand on the neck" thing is, well, very romantic . . . and hot as hell, given that many people sweat profusely from the neck.

• Take pauses to drink cool water and lower your body temperature, ideally near a fan or open window.

• Change out of sweaty clothing. Quite a few men change shirts. I usually go through 3 or 4. Women seem less inclined to change, but I know several who do, and it makes a big difference. One woman in particular makes a game of having an outfit for early, mid, and late milonga.

All of which points to "simpler is better." People who coat their face and hair in various products, wear complicated outfits with layers or strange fabrics, and can't change because their desired look can't be achieved during a 10-minute break . . . well, they're asking to be hot and sweaty.

"Simple" doesn't mean "inelegant" or "ugly." I get compliments on my outfit quite often – including from fellow leaders who have no ulterior motives, like "Dance with me!" – and my typical outfit consists of a solid-colored bamboo shirt (no tie, vest, or jacket), proper tango trousers with a slightly expensive belt, and tango shoes kept in reasonable shape. My life and dance partner wears zero makeup, hair products, or perfume, and usually sticks to a camisole-style top with spaghetti straps, made for tango, and a short skirt made for tango, both in a solid color, plus her shoes (which, I grant, are fancy). Other followers grab her by the arm to ask where she buys her clothing.

People overestimate what it takes to achieve simple elegance.

 

[JournalInTime]

But what if you really enjoy dancing with some followers who wear heavy makeup that transfers to your shirt?

I dance with her and pay my drycleaner – joy in exchange for a cleaning fee is an excellent deal! I wish we had more deals like that in life . . .

Or she sweats like this?

That one is more personal, but I don't find sweat off-putting; I find the scent of perspiration off-putting. My experience is that a dancer who showers directly before dressing and heading to the milonga, and who uses a good antiperspirant, might sweat all over me but I won't care. What I dislike are people who pretty clearly haven't showered since the morning or even the previous day, wearing clothing they've sweated in but not laundered or had cleaned. If they don't sweat, they merely smell bad; if they do sweat, they make me smell bad.

I am deaf to "Showering wastes water and electricity!" and "Antiperspirants are bad for you!" arguments. Perhaps, but tango is arguably even less necessary and more of a luxury than those things, so if you're going to go out and dance, make an exception. Here we have a few "all-natural followers" who eschew showers and antiperspirants . . . and I eschew them.

For leaders who are turned down, how does it affect you? Do you ever ask the follower again?

The effect on me is mild disappointment followed by an immediate search for another partner who was looking the other way, so she won't feel like a consolation prize. If there's no such partner (no followers who weren't looking, or no followers at all), I know how to take a pause – say, to change my shirt and get some cold water. No worries. It's part of tango life.

Of course I'll ask the follower again, unless she makes it her national pastime to turn me down. After a few times being turned down at a few milongas by the same partner (say, "twice last Tuesday, one last Friday, and three more times tonight"), I get the message that she dislikes my level, style, appearance, behavior, social group, or whatever. Then I'll give up for good. Well, not really, because in a year or two, I'll probably retry.

"If you turn someone down, they'll never invite you again!" is an anxious myth that's far from reality in any tango scene with more than a couple of milongas and dozens of dancers. To be honest, I've yet to dance at a milonga where a follower hasn't said, "Why haven't we danced since last time?" as I've desperately searched my memory to recall having met her at all. Few dancers in decent-sized tango communities even remember all the people who did or didn't dance with them!

There are a few grudge-holders who are the origin of the myth, but my perspective on them is, "Why would you want to dance with anybody that petty anyway?"

 

[Be Present]

I dance with her and pay my drycleaner – joy in exchange for a cleaning fee is an excellent deal! I wish we had more deals like that in life . . .

I feel the same way.

Btw my hair is short and I don’t use hairspray. It would be easier if i could just tie it back. Then it wouldn’t get flat and matted on one side.

I don’t think that a lot of leaders would be ok with the ‘don’t wear any makeup” followers. Attraction is part of this equation and that means different things to different people.

 

[daisy_r]

I would prefer if leaders who sweat heavily would not press their face/head against mine while dancing close embrace. This seems almost like a no brainer, but it happens all the time.

I am interested in leader’s perspective; especially those who tend to perspire heavily. And how do others followers view this?

I don't encounter this problem that often. There are sweaty leaders out there, but usually none of them are so bad that it's a problem for me, or they use a more open embrace when it gets that bad.

I guess you can either try to catch them at the start of the night for one of the slower tandas, before they get so sweaty, or use a more open embrace. If they don't let you open the embrace then I guess you may want to weigh up the pros and cons of dancing with them. To me an embrace that is so restrictive that I can't choose to open it usually isn't comfortable.

I have a difficult time saying no to cabeceos. For leaders who are turned down, how does it affect you? Do you ever ask the follower again? Do other followers have the same difficulty with turning leaders down?

It can be hard to say no to a dance. Sometimes it's because I love dancing so much that I find it hard to stop, even when I should. Sometimes it's hard to say no because I worry about the repercussions: will I get a reputation for being unfriendly, will that person start avoiding me, etc...

But I think that the only question I need to ask myself is this: can I try to give this person a good tanda right now? Or am I too tired? Is the music right for us? Will I feel too afraid / self-conscious / uncomfortable / worried to dance well with them right now?

If I think that I can't give them a good tanda at that moment then I say no. The way I see it, it would actually be disrespectful of me to say yes; saying yes is like a contract to me, I'm agreeing to invest in this dance with this person. I think many people can tell when your heart isn't in the dancing, so what is worse, saying "no" or just going through the motions?

If I say yes when I don't want to then I am actually trapping them into a tanda with a reluctant participant. That's not their fault (if they used the cabeceo), it's mine, because they can't read my mind, if I don't want to dance with them but I choose to do it anyway and if that tanda ends up being terrible, then I view that as being entirely my fault, and how is that fair or kind to them?

If you are using the cabeceo, you shouldn't really have to say no. You just don't hold their gaze and that's that. If they come and ask you, just say a polite "no thank you". You don't have to explain or justify.

Some people might be shocked, especially if you're the kind of person who up until now has always said yes enthusiastically. Some people, usually the less experienced who are keen to get all the dances they can or those who view tango more casually, might not understand. For some the rejection might sting, they might hesitate to invite you again. Usually, if I say no to a leader I do still want to dance with sometimes I will wait for the right tanda and seek them out, give them a clear mirada and a smile, we will dance, and all will be well.

 

[pianistamediano]

But what if you really enjoy dancing with some followers who wear heavy makeup that transfers to your shirt? Or she sweats like this? Or she is a super nice person and if she asked you to dance (just go with me) you know she would be offended or hurt or whatever.

I've had lipstick on my collar (or even cheek!) too many times to care; unless it stains or can't be easily removed, then I'm fine. Sweat isn't an issue either; it's natural, and I sweat quite a bit too. But if that sweat is accompanied with body odour, then I will avoid them.

I have a difficult time saying no to cabeceos. For leaders who are turned down, how does it affect you? Do you ever ask the follower again? Do other followers have the same difficulty with turning leaders down?

I make it clear to my regular followers that they can invite me verbally at any time, and I will usually accept, unless I have a good reason not to. Similarly, I do the same, and I accept it if they decline my invitation and not press further. I don't use verbal invitations with followers I am not friends with unless we're talking and it feels like a good moment.

I usually try to invite followers a few times (two, three perhaps) before I stop inviting them. I think that's a fair number of tries. I have no interest in dancing with people who don't want to dance with me. If they want to dance with me, they can just ask me. I've been seen regularly accepting verbal invitations from followers (known and unknown) at many milongas here, so hopefully the message will spread.

I've lost count of the number of times followers have told me about accepting tandas with leaders they didn't really want to dance with; mostly because they just wanted to get out onto the dancefloor and dance instead of ironing their seats. I strongly advocate not accepting invitations from (or inviting, in the case of leaders) dancers you don't want to dance with, but I understand that followers are often in a position where not accepting a dance is worse than having a bad dance.

It has been the case that I invited a follower once, and never again for the rest of the milonga; but more times than not, it was because the DJ didn't play any tandas I wanted to dance with that particular follower.

 

[Greybeard]

I always spray a sealer on my makeup because I don’t want to get makeup on the leaders. I also think that some follower’s faces get more moist than mine and no sealer would hold up to that. It’s part of the dance. It’s like coming home from a date with a girlfriend’s makeup on your collar. It’s a nice reminder of the evening. Maybe not, but I do think it’s a consequence of the dance and leaders want followers to look as nice as possible.

Why would a follower wear heavy makeup if it's going to rub off? At the end of the night wouldn't they see themselves in the mirror with a well painted left and a naked except for left over streaks on the right side of their face? (All right, a bit of exaggeration.)

I don’t think that a lot of leaders would be ok with the ‘don’t wear any makeup” followers. Attraction is part of this equation and that means different things to different people.

I may be in a minority, but I don't want to see someone's makeup at first glance, I want to see an attractive woman. Maybe after talking with her for a while I might notice lipstick or eye shadow, but that would be a little to enhance her beauty. I am excluding stage makeup from this. And if she's making a statement with her makeup, I'll think about the statement I see (which might not be the one she thinks she's making).

I may also be displaying my ignorance about what women really look like.

And the extra confidence she feels from making herself look good is also attractive.

 

[Miradamiranda]

lady followers tend to love a man in a vest

Don’t underestimate the comfort they provide the follower in terms of a sweat barrier!

a lot of followers hate waistcoats with silk backs, as they are too slippery.

yes exactly! However silky material can be nice and cool to the touch. I’m not too big a fan but I deal with it frequently since one of my most regular partners swears for vests.

Wool is perfect, if any of you are contemplating this.

 

[JournalInTime]

I don’t think that a lot of leaders would be ok with the ‘don’t wear any makeup” followers. Attraction is part of this equation and that means different things to different people.

I can speak only for myself:

I slightly dislike makeup. It has nothing to do with moralism ("Painted ladies! Oh, my!"), environmentalism ("All that stuff is toxic and tested on animals!"), or even aesthetics. It has to do with being a colorblind guy who mostly sees his dance partner's ear, which means the stuff is irrelevant right up until it ends up on his clothing, whereupon he's slightly annoyed. That's a net negative, if only mildly so.

I suppose that, subconsciously, there's the fact that in a lifetime of girlfriends, being married for a long time, and then living for years with a common-law partner, I've never had a woman in my life who wore makeup. For me, then, makeup doesn't seem normal because all of the women who helped me form the basis for "normal" weren't wearers of it. My sense of attraction apparently doesn't respond to makeup.

Finally, I used to be a troublemaking punk, and I went through a "I'll wear makeup because it'll annoy all the conservative people who think makeup is for women! And if they say anything, I'll have an excuse to slam them!" phase. So, my personal experience with makeup is with the cheap kind, poorly applied, for the very opposite of attraction.

 

[JournalInTime]

I guess you can either try to catch them at the start of the night for one of the slower tandas, before they get so sweaty, or use a more open embrace. If they don't let you open the embrace then I guess you may want to weigh up the pros and cons of dancing with them.

Often, when I'm sweaty, I'll say, "I'm hot and sweaty. If that's too much, no worries, I'll understand. I can ask again later, perhaps after I take a break and change my shirt." I've never once had a person say, "Yes, please, ask again later." When we start to dance, I'll ask, "Would you like to dance more open, at least?" I've never once had a person say, "Yes, please, let's dance more open."

My suspicion is that if someone really wants to dance with you, they'll dance regardless of heat and sweat. If they're bringing up heat and sweat as a reason not to dance with you, that probably isn't the real reason.

 

[Miradamiranda]

Makeup… sweat… close embrace… Since appearance does matter in this context, for us no-longer-the-youngest followers, it’s something most of us feel we need to do. Women ask women for advice on quality make-up that works. A woman I know in her early 60s never wears make-up. She is a good dancer but doesn’t get many dances. Sometimes I wonder if it’s because the guys are too shallow, or whether she simply doesn’t know how to work the mirada.

A sweaty partner doesn’t deter me one bit. Wrong activity for sweat phobic people.

I’m only now catching up with the last many pages of this thread. Frankly, a pleasant embrace can be any type or style of embrace where the communication flows. Even a highly restrictive one, where the leader pulls me in too tightly with his arm below my rib cage and then expects me to be able distort in anatomically impossible ways… CAN be pleasant (although painful), if the vocabulary is severely limited. I make do and wait for the next partner to do full dissociated pivots instead.