Exactly! Ratio imbalance can cause power dynamics to change, but power to say no is far greater than power to ask.
What are the technical elements of a pleasant embrace?
- Thread starter noobster
- Start date
Not always. It is more complicated. I might connect well with someone or they with me. The drift and misunderstanding occurs due to other factors. If you don’t ask someone for a while they assume you don’t like dancing with them and start avoiding you. Whereas you didn’t ask because there wasn’t a right opportunity. It is one example where neither is at fault.
I fully agree. It produces more confusion and prone to miscommunication. To avoid either both participants need to be well versed in art of cabeceo and also how to communicate “not this tanda” or “not now”. It also depends whether you are communicating with a regular you know or someone you don’t know.
I am curious to know the following from the milongas everyone here attends regularly:
a. How many regulars you know that you dance with.
b. How many regulars you are familiar with whether you dance with them or not.
c. How many of your dances are using cabaceo with people you don’t regularly dance with. How many by asking verbally or walkaceo.
d. If person you know is at the opposite end of the room, what do you do to ask them.
e. How many non-regulars, non-familiar do you dance with on an average night.
f. What typical size or number of people at the milonga.
g. What is the gender ratio.
There are a lot of variables. When we discuss it is based on the variables we face which then becomes our typical experience. Since @JournalInTime writes in details, I know his typical experience is vastly different than mine. Our both scenes while being large are also very different.
a. How many regulars you know that you dance with.
Most - at least by sight. Depending on circumstances may not have danced for a few weeks - months
b. How many regulars you are familiar with whether you dance with them or not.
Most
c. How many of your dances are using cabaceo with people you don’t regularly dance with. How many by asking verbally or walkaceo.
If there's a line-of-sight where a cabeceo is discernible, yes. Usually it's people adjacent to us, or we're sat with - so cabeceo isn't relevant. I've banned walkeceo. If you have to walk over to grimace, then you may as well just ask. Maybe a cabeceo as a jest.
d. If person you know is at the opposite end of the room, what do you do to ask them.
Depends. If they're seeking, then cabeceo. But it can be in a group who are chatting, or it can be someone ironing a seat with no success who's almost resigned to sitting out. In that case, walk over and ask.
e. How many non-regulars, non-familiar do you dance with on an average night.
2-3
f. What typical size or number of people at the milonga.
30-80
g. What is the gender ratio.
Probably 60:40 followers:leaders. Occasionally 50:50. Can be significantly more followers initially - and sometimes it stays that way.
You didn't ask about age distribution! Normally 50+ to elderly (80's - but great dancers!) skewing to the older range. Can be an influx of younger (20-30 years) followers/leaders from other groups - but they tend to do their own thing.
Probably ~10-12 milongas within 150km radius. Some weekly (maybe 2-3). Others monthly.
Most - at least by sight. Depending on circumstances may not have danced for a few weeks - months
b. How many regulars you are familiar with whether you dance with them or not.
Most
c. How many of your dances are using cabaceo with people you don’t regularly dance with. How many by asking verbally or walkaceo.
If there's a line-of-sight where a cabeceo is discernible, yes. Usually it's people adjacent to us, or we're sat with - so cabeceo isn't relevant. I've banned walkeceo. If you have to walk over to grimace, then you may as well just ask. Maybe a cabeceo as a jest.
d. If person you know is at the opposite end of the room, what do you do to ask them.
Depends. If they're seeking, then cabeceo. But it can be in a group who are chatting, or it can be someone ironing a seat with no success who's almost resigned to sitting out. In that case, walk over and ask.
e. How many non-regulars, non-familiar do you dance with on an average night.
2-3
f. What typical size or number of people at the milonga.
30-80
g. What is the gender ratio.
Probably 60:40 followers:leaders. Occasionally 50:50. Can be significantly more followers initially - and sometimes it stays that way.
You didn't ask about age distribution! Normally 50+ to elderly (80's - but great dancers!) skewing to the older range. Can be an influx of younger (20-30 years) followers/leaders from other groups - but they tend to do their own thing.
Probably ~10-12 milongas within 150km radius. Some weekly (maybe 2-3). Others monthly.
opendoor
Forum Master
4
60
0-0
Ask right at the beginning if she saves a Pugliese, diSarli or Caló tanda for me later at night.
0
110
60:40 f:m
a. How many regulars you know that you dance with.
Depending on Milonga - 20% to 40%.
Another 25% to 30%, I won’t ask.
I think we average at least 2 to 3 milongas a month where there is live music. I might be undercounting. I haven’t been going out to milongas much for a few months. Last night the live music was very good. I enjoyed listening. The floor was crowded. I danced two tandas with two followers I hadn’t seen before. Both were good. One only started after Covid. There were at least 4-5 regulars I danced with whom I didn’t ask. One of them is very good dancer. The rest are okayish long time dancer.
b. How many regulars you are familiar with whether you dance with them or not.
At any given milonga about 50% to 60%
c. How many of your dances are using cabaceo with people you don’t regularly dance with. How many by asking verbally or walkaceo.
100%
No walkaceo.
d. If person you know is at the opposite end of the room, what do you do to ask them.
Cabaceo long distance.
e. How many non-regulars, non-familiar do you dance with on an average night.
30% to 40%
f. What typical size or number of people at the milonga.
60 to 100+
g. What is the gender ratio.
Generally 60:40 to 80:20 leader heavy when the rest are on the dance floor. **
Age ratio: shallower bell curve with 40s and 50s near the top of the curve.
**Last night seating was about half a dozen tables facing the floor and some additional chairs. When people were dancing there were men standing behind about 8 to 10. There were may be 4 to 5 followers mostly seating at the tables facing the floor with their backs to the men. The over all area was small. Therefore people weren’t that far apart.
Depending on Milonga - 20% to 40%.
Another 25% to 30%, I won’t ask.
I think we average at least 2 to 3 milongas a month where there is live music. I might be undercounting. I haven’t been going out to milongas much for a few months. Last night the live music was very good. I enjoyed listening. The floor was crowded. I danced two tandas with two followers I hadn’t seen before. Both were good. One only started after Covid. There were at least 4-5 regulars I danced with whom I didn’t ask. One of them is very good dancer. The rest are okayish long time dancer.
b. How many regulars you are familiar with whether you dance with them or not.
At any given milonga about 50% to 60%
c. How many of your dances are using cabaceo with people you don’t regularly dance with. How many by asking verbally or walkaceo.
100%
No walkaceo.
d. If person you know is at the opposite end of the room, what do you do to ask them.
Cabaceo long distance.
e. How many non-regulars, non-familiar do you dance with on an average night.
30% to 40%
f. What typical size or number of people at the milonga.
60 to 100+
g. What is the gender ratio.
Generally 60:40 to 80:20 leader heavy when the rest are on the dance floor. **
Age ratio: shallower bell curve with 40s and 50s near the top of the curve.
**Last night seating was about half a dozen tables facing the floor and some additional chairs. When people were dancing there were men standing behind about 8 to 10. There were may be 4 to 5 followers mostly seating at the tables facing the floor with their backs to the men. The over all area was small. Therefore people weren’t that far apart.
TTanguero
Forum Master
10-12.
At my usual milongas, more than 50%.
Technically, 100% cabeceo. But if we separate out those where I'm at the same table, or within similarly close range (where cabeceo is used as a playful version of a verbal invitation), then it's probably something like:
- 95% cabeceo
- 5% playful cabeceo
Cabeceo – ideally long-range, otherwise walk to a sensible distance/angle first.
I guess typically 2-4. More at a festival.
I'm guessing 60-ish at my regular milongas. 120-250 at festivals.
Probably 60% followers is typical.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
a. How many regulars you know that you dance with.
Don't know. A bunch. Depends on the milonga and the night
b. How many regulars you are familiar with whether you dance with them or not.
So, this includes the above number, right? Don't know. Depends what you mean by "familiar with." I know a lot of people by sight, dozens, most of whom I don't dance with.
c. How many of your dances are using cabaceo with people you don’t regularly dance with. How many by asking verbally or walkaceo.
How many? No idea. For people I do not know at all or don't regularly dance with, I always use the cabeceo.
d. If person you know is at the opposite end of the room, what do you do to ask them.
Depends on the line of sight and people in between. If too far or too many people, I'll try to move to where they can see me.
e. How many non-regulars, non-familiar do you dance with on an average night.
Depends on the night. I'd say one.
f. What typical size or number of people at the milonga.
Depends on the milonga. Some have 30 people, others around 80, others 150 or more.
g. What is the gender ratio.
You mean m/f ? Or leader / follower? Almost always more leaders, including a few women who only lead.
a - maybe I could dance half the tandas with people I enjoy dancing with, without repeating? they don't all turn up on the same night
b - most
c - almost all cabeceo unless we happen to be talking already or they are beginners
d - cabeceo. the long distance ones are fun. I might have to move around to get a LOS, or if that's impossible without getting into close proximity I'll ask directly. Or they ask me.
e - depends whether new people visit the milonga so i'll say 2-3
f - 30-100
g - it fluctuates but typically there's slightly more women. Some of them lead or switch roles to balance
JournalInTime
Forum Master
Hard call, but counting all the milongas I attend each week, in the neighborhood of 40-45 each week and maybe that many more (another 40-45) at least a couple of times per year.
I'd call the 80-90 people I dance with at least sometimes "half the regulars I'm familiar with," so while it's an estimate based on an estimate based on an estimate, I'd claim familiarity with 160-180 people. I count ~200 tangueras as Facebook friends, and they're not all the tangueras I know, nor are they all the tangueras I dance with.
If it's people I don't regularly dance with, it's 100% cabeceo. I only invite a person other ways if I know them at least moderately well.
Cabeceo, unless I reserved a tanda. I reserve a lot of specific tandas (first/next/last vals/milonga/D'Arienzo tango/whatever) for friends, either before the event or when I pass someone during it.
Maybe one or two. Sometimes none . . . If even half my regulars for the week are present (say, 20 people) and I'm going to be there for 14-16 tandas, there won't be room on my dance card for new additions.
Super-variable! I attend 3-5 milongas a week – not always the same 3-5 – and attendance varies with weather, DJ, competition, holidays, etc. I've seen as low as 30 and as high as 120 on typical weeks, and sad milongas with 20 people during snowstorms and crazy ones with 300+ people for special events. I guess I'd peg 50-60 as "average," but it isn't a stable average.
Most often between 3:2 and 2:1 F:M. There are times when it's briefly 5:4 M:F near the start of the event; I get the impression that men show up earlier. I've never seen an event that stayed that way or worse. I've seen quite a few where it was 3:1 F:M, and I remember one where I was one of just two men for the first hour, and there were about 20 women.
So, a typical milonga for me might have 60 people in the form of 36 women and 24 men, I might know 18 of the women, regularly dance with 9 of them, and invite a few friends twice and a few newcomers once. I'll go to 3-5 like that a week, and it's quite possible that I'll see totally different crowds at each one, so it's plausible that's 27-45 different regulars a week. In practice there's a little overlap, but also in practice there are more people than that unstable average, and most of the "more people" are women . . . the busy places with 3:1 F:M tend to look like the less busy places with 2:1 F:M except with 50% more women.
Your entire tango universe is completely different (and opposite?) than mine
it is like two parallel universes. The laws from mine won’t apply in yours and vice versa. The dynamics are so different that the people’s behavior will evolve very differently.
opendoor
Forum Master
It would be interesting to know which of these differences would be subjective and which would be objective criteria. I know from my own experience that crises change the way we look at everything. Since my career was stopped by an injury, my view of tango in all of its aspects has dramatically changed.
Your entire tango universe is completely different (and opposite?) than mine
Well, our universes might not even be the same as those of other people in the same milonga
JournalInTime
Forum Master
I agree.
I've had many "That was a great milonga!" / "Really? I had a terrible time." exchanges with people at the exit after La cumparsita, and countless conversations where someone else totally disagreed with me on which of our city's many milongas have the most welcoming hosts, best DJs, nicest spaces (considering factors such as size, acoustics, floor, and air conditioning), friendliest dancers, most skilled dancers, and so on. Plus of course a person's universe doesn't stop at tango. Health, family, friends, romance, work, finances, and all the rest put tango in a context.
One of my tango friends judges milongas by how many dancers above her self-assigned level invite her to dance – her argument being that after all the time and money she has invested in tango, she's "entitled" to dance with them. Yet her idea of who is good is bizarre, a lot of people with stooped postures, uncollected legs, and overactive arms. She's in an on-again, off-again relationship with a man she doesn't like to dance with. Despite having considerably more disposable income than I do, she complains when she spends money on an event that doesn't meet her standards. So, she likes milongas where slightly weird dancers line up to dance with her, and where her sometimes-boyfriend isn't, and sees ones with competition for good dancers, and slightly higher entry fees, as bad. When tango visitors come to town, she shows them her idea of the best milongas, which are mostly the milongas I try to avoid . . .
. . . and she avoids my favorite, her line being, "Well, of course you like it there! It's full of women who want to dance with you, and the hosts, DJ, and half the dancers are your friends. When I go there, it feels snobby and cold, and there's nobody to dance with."
Definitely different universes right outside my door.
We might be in different galaxies but same universe
