What Is Tango Doing Right/Wrong: Recruiting and Retaining

[lucia_l]

So when I talk about culture that way, I’m saying there’s a lot more to it than the dance that people wish to explore so they get a better understanding of the dance itself.

Yeah. With respect to dance, I mostly just want to have fun, socialize with people and dance, preferably beautifully. I'm not really interested in immersing myself in some foreign culture or gain a better understanding of the history of the dance.

It seems to me that prioritizing social life rather than customs and histories of other nations makes social ballroom more social than AT. AT ends up a bit more "theatrical" and less about socializing with people. That's fine. I get people like it. But it seems to me it makes it rather less social.

 

[second2noone]

Yeah. With respect to dance, I mostly just want to have fun, socialize with people and dance, preferably beautifully. I'm not really interested in immersing myself in some foreign culture or gain a better understanding of the history of the dance.

It seems to me that prioritizing social life rather than customs and histories of other nations makes social ballroom more social than AT. AT ends up a bit more "theatrical" and less about socializing with people. That's fine. I get people like it. But it seems to me it makes it rather less social.

It's interesting how different it can be depending on where you live. In my small communities of Ballroom and Argentine Tango, it's the opposite of your experience. The ballroom crowd is more about dancing (edited to add: except when the "Christian Singles" group in the area join, then it becomes more about socializing than dancing), and the Argentine Tango community is more about socializing and drinking wine with each other.

 

[lucia_l]

And to the point: your grandparents, like my grandparents, naturally danced ballroom socially. But that's the broad definition. In the European countries I know, however, there are no ballroom socials that take place outside of affiliated dance schools or are organized by non-accredited dance teachers. That's what I mean by "ballroom" in the narrow sense. The only exception I know of are the balls in Vienna. They aren't hosted by the ballroom industry because they've become a separate business.

By broad you seem to mean: "All activities that involve ballroom dance". By narrow, you seem to mean "competitive ballroom dance only". Of course competitive-only ballroom dance is not social. Competitive ballroom dance is competitive. Heck, competitive Tango is competitive. But I don't then say "Tango is not social". Nor do I say, "Tango is now social". And if I did say that, I wouldn't have claimed I meant "Tango" in the "narrow sense" (of competitive tango!)

It's a tautology to say "competitive X is competitive and not social". It doesn't matter what X is. Doesn't matter if X is tango or ballroom.

Tango has always had a social elements. I don't know how long Tango had a competitive element-- probably a fairly long time. Same with ballroom. At least around here, ballroom is every bit as social as Tango. Possibly more so because we don't insist people need to adopt a whole other theatrical set of more's pretending we are living in 19X0s Argentina!

Anyway, in both cases, competition sprang out of social. And in ballroom, at least around here, there is a ton of social ballroom-- more than there is social AT. (I have to drive to the city to get social AT. It's much further.)

 

[brujo]

No, but you learn a surprising amount from the Argentine Spanish names for moves.

Some concepts are just incredibly hard to translate into other languages, for example entrega. But the amount of Spanish you need in tango is very little and most terms have an English equivalent. In some places like Taiwan people also use the English word instead of the Spanish word, you’ll hear embrace and abrazo used equally as much.

As a fluent Spanish speaker it is still often very hard to discern the lyrics in a tango song, not sure it helps much. It does make things like listening to things like fiction writer Jorge Luis Borges lectures on tango fun, but realistically it yields very little other benefits.

 

[lucia_l]

and the Argentine Tango community is more about socializing and drinking wine with each other.

We have snacks at most ballroom socials. During any dance, at least half the people are sitting and talking. There are no men's or women's tables.

 

[lucia_l]

That's a rather different phenomenon – not men who were unintimidated when they first started dancing, but rather those who are oblivious to the quality of their own dance.

Hahaha! Same thing seems to happen in all social dance. But I suspect it's little different with women. It's easy to think you are better than you are and overlook your own mistakes. Plus the mistakes that affect your partner are often different from the ones you perceive yourself.

The thing that can spare men from women who think they are excellent but are not is the leader can just stick to easier patterns. A woman who ends up with one of these "advanced intermediates" (who are really advanced beginners) can easily experience being "lead" into a whole bunch of patterns. The scare quotes on "lead" are because the experience involves constantly guessing what they heck the "lead" intended to suggest you do. Guessing is unpleasant especially when you end up wrong and the guy just won't tone it down and switch to something simpler. (I don't even care if he thinks he's "under dancing" his own ability for my sake. Yeah... if you think she can't follow everything you know, "underdance". That's what the best leads do!)

So leads can avoid much of the unpleasantness associated with dancing with an overconfident follow. You don't have to lead everything they think they have mastered!

As a follow, it is usually much more fun to dance with beginners than the over confident "advanced intermediates"! At least they only think they know about 4 patterns , the are all easy and there is less guessing.

 

[second2noone]

We have snacks at most ballroom socials. During any dance, at least half the people are sitting and talking. There are no men's or women's tables.

We don't have men's or women's tables in any community here. Interesting. People sit with who they know, or in some venues with limited seating stand in groups of friends in all of them.

 

[lucia_l]

We don't have men's or women's tables in any community here. Interesting. People sit with who they know, or in some venues with limited seating stand in groups of friends in all of them.

The place I frequent most often has single chairs on three walls and small round tables on the fourth wall. Plus the entrance is a small separate room with two couches. People take tables, and many will circulate to an extent. Also, the snack tables and water bottles are in the corners, so people interact there.

There is a bar downstairs. Some people go there for drinks before or after the socials. (I don't. Drinking doesn't help my dancing!)

This place is more social than some other places, but many have chairs on at least two walls during social get togethers or showcases. They might be foldable and put away during lessons.

 

[Rabbit]

It seems to me that prioritizing social life rather than customs and histories of other nations makes social ballroom more social than AT. AT ends up a bit more "theatrical" and less about socializing with people. That's fine. I get people like it. But it seems to me it makes it rather less social.

actually most people aren't interested in Argentinian culture or the roleplaying thereof and just want to dance. I don't think most of the so-called traditional milonga protocols are even a positive for the scene

 

[second2noone]

The place I frequent most often has single chairs on three walls and small round tables on the fourth wall. Plus the entrance is a small separate room with two couches. People take tables, and many will circulate to an extent. Also, the snack tables and water bottles are in the corners, so people interact there.

There is a bar downstairs. Some people go there for drinks before or after the socials. (I don't. Drinking doesn't help my dancing!)

This place is more social than some other places, but many have chairs on at least two walls during social get togethers or showcases. They might be foldable and put away during lessons.

In the ballroom venues in my area, one has a bar, that doesn't get alot of customers, but i think people can bring their own alcohol. If they want to bring snacks they can, however they tend to just bring cakes for people's birthdays. The other venue offers wine to the attendees for free, it's a newer venue with a small clientele base.

The Argentine Tango venue will set up chairs along the walls, and a table near the DJ station for the wine and crackers provided by the community leader. Some of the long-time attendees bring their own wine for the group.

The West Coast Swing venues sell water. Some people may bring an alcoholic beverage in, but most drink water. It has historically been hard to find social dance venues in our area because the dancers generally don't drink and dance.

 

[tangoing]

Yeah. With respect to dance, I mostly just want to have fun, socialize with people and dance, preferably beautifully. I'm not really interested in immersing myself in some foreign culture or gain a better understanding of the history of the dance.

It seems to me that prioritizing social life rather than customs and histories of other nations makes social ballroom more social than AT. AT ends up a bit more "theatrical" and less about socializing with people. That's fine. I get people like it. But it seems to me it makes it rather less social.

That’s fine, and there’s tons of people in AT who just want to dance and socialize too, if anything that’s probably the norm/majority. I’m saying people who really want to get good at the dance often will delve into the cultural aspects of it.

 

[brujo]

You just have to know the correct places to go (assuming there’s multiple places in your city). It’s like in nyc last year some guy took a first time tango dancer to one of the most advanced/snobby places in the city and she had an awful time, and she wrote a blog post about it and it became viral in the tango scene.

When I lived in the Bay Area I had chatted with a work friend and he said that his female friend loved tango and was eagerly telling him that he should go. I kinda held my tongue because of the different gender expectations and experiences at events. I don’t think the zouk dancer’s experience in NY was really that venue specific. I know a lot of salsa and swing dancers in a smaller town, they try tango in earnest for one or two full class sessions and drop out because even the friendliest milongas are unwelcoming to a social dancer of other styles.

 

[pianistamediano]

All the history, culture, tradition, even Spanish names for moves... It's optional. You can call a hug an embrace or abrazo, the cabeceo/mirada the nod/look, whatever. You pick these things up by exposure, casual conversation, from teachers.

Most people just ignore them and are perfectly happy!

All I believe is that they shouldn't be lost.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

if you remove age as an factor, a woman follower of any age will move up the ladder if they show up for social dancing and make it easier to be asked.

Not really. A woman who starts when she's 50 or 60 is going to have a much harder time of it in most cases than a young woman. Also, the learning curve for them is longer, if anything simply because of their age (men as well take longer). Just showing up is not enough.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Would be nice if there was a more gradual progression at the events.

Prácticas can serve that purpose.