What Is Tango Doing Right/Wrong: Recruiting and Retaining

[brujo]

It’s interesting that the NYC zouk dancer’s experience about being brought to the snobbiest milonga was mentioned. She did an interview with IMSOTango and what was super interesting about her perspective was how aggressively unwelcoming to new comers people were at the scene compared to all the other dances. If you listen to the interview, it also seemed that since she was visiting from out of town this was one of the few events available that fit their schedule. Having to research milonga friendliness and types even before attending feels like a giant barrier of entry for those who want to try it. No other social dance has this weird “this space is for people with at least two years dancing” rule. As a new lead, it feels even worse and less welcoming.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Not sure how the last part is related to the first.

In terms of goals and commitment--it depends on how serious you are about improving. One (follower) can take a few classes and stop there and still dance at a milonga or, if she is really committed, practice intensively for several years. In the latter case, moving up may be a slower process.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

No other social dance has this weird “this space is for people with at least two years dancing” rule. As a new lead, it feels even worse and less welcoming.

Argentine tango is not like any other social dance. It's an entirely different animal.

 

[Bailango]

Not really. A woman who starts when she's 50 or 60 is going to have a much harder time of it in most cases than a young woman. Also, the learning curve for them is longer, if anything simply because of their age (men as well take longer). Just showing up is not enough.

I said showing up and making it to easier to be asked. Not all men can dance with PYTs. There are only so many PYTs available each tanda. There are only so many good followers available each tanda. As I said many men are intimidated of getting rejected. Therefore a woman in 50s or 60s looking around for cabaceo or signaling she is wiling to dance does get asked. Unless the ratio is hopelessly lopsided, they will certainly get a few dances.

I don’t want to muddle the discussion with learning curve aspect. It adds another dimension to why those who are quicker to learn (generally younger followers) will get asked more.

 

[Bailango]

It doesn’t help in recruitment and retention when the default codigo and behaviors in the most public events are also the least friendly.

If followed they work and makes it easier for everyone. The problem is when they are selectively followed or discarded.

The gap between beginner class and what actually happens at a milonga is also huge and intimidating.

That’s true for most partner dances. When beginner students see advance dancers immediately after class, they will be very intimidating. Since more of the milonga is walking, I say AT is far more relatable to what you are taught in beginner class. Compared to salsa or swing.

 

[Bailango]

It’s interesting that the NYC zouk dancer’s experience about being brought to the snobbiest milonga was mentioned. She did an interview with IMSOTango and what was super interesting about her perspective was how aggressively unwelcoming to new comers people were at the scene compared to all the other dances. If you listen to the interview, it also seemed that since she was visiting from out of town this was one of the few events available that fit their schedule. Having to research milonga friendliness and types even before attending feels like a giant barrier of entry for those who want to try it. No other social dance has this weird “this space is for people with at least two years dancing” rule. As a new lead, it feels even worse and less welcoming.

This has been covered in some other thread as also the video of those two guys discussing it.

I have always complained about how unfriendly milongas generally tend to be. However I would say the zouk dancer in question jumped the gun and is drawing conclusions from very limited one time experience. Also her expectations were wrongly set and her friend who took her to milonga did her a disservice.

Tango doesn’t have “this space is for people with atleast two years experience” rule. No such nonsense. Whether it is BsAs or local milongas, no one stops a beginner from dancing. Being a traveling line of dance, if you are a beginner you need to be aware that you can disrupt a lot of people if you can’t move. Usually beginners are advise to dance in the middle where there may not be line of dance. An average leader is sometimes advised to learn for a year before stepping into milonga. That is just an advice and not a rule. Many of us on here started attending milongas right as beginners within a month of starting to learn. Unlike other social dances, practicas and practicalongas are regular feature of tango scene. Practicalongas are like milongas with more relaxed vibes and permission to break certain codigas.

The reason AT feels unwelcoming doesn’t have to do with any of the reasons you mentioned.

 

[Brummbaer]

Having to research milonga friendliness and types even before attending feels like a giant barrier of entry for those who want to try it.

Having learnt some basic social waltz, would you venture out onto the Blackpool Tower Ballroom dancefloor for a waltz? Or maybe try it out in a Viennese Waltz? Or, having observed the situation, thinking they're going to be ok? (And yes, I have danced there.)

I take your point, but a little common sense might be expected - especially in that case where the person taking her is supposed to be experienced.

No one comes out well from this.

 

[pianistamediano]

... it also seemed that since she was visiting from out of town this was one of the few events available that fit their schedule. Having to research milonga friendliness and types even before attending feels like a giant barrier of entry for those who want to try it.

... the person taking her is supposed to be experienced.

I personally spoke with several veteran NYC dancers who were at the same events in Europe as I was. They all knew the person who took her around at that particular milonga, and he is very, very unorthodox, to be polite. He's an oddball of oddballs, has very strange ideas about what milongas should be, and applies them to every single milonga he's at, be they traditional or casual or whatever. He is NOT the best guide one could have to mainstream milongas (being the vast majority of milongas in the world) simply because his perspective is so skewed.

This is the Facebook post he made about her, but I'm not going to summarise his thoughts on the common customs and códigos of milongas. Read the comments with your morning tea/coffee.

She went there because, if I recall correctly, she had attended events (different social dance) at the same venue and liked it. Personally, I believe her friend should have tried to persuade her to go somewhere else if possible, and if not get a group of his friends to be around and at least dance with her, since it is NYC's El Destino.

Honestly, I've seen a video of her dancing tango with that guy before the incident. Impressive for a newbie, but to be expected from a veteran social dancer, open embrace of course, so honestly I'd be more than willing to dance a three-song tanda with her at a milonga/practilonga, or even four songs actually, since I'm always interested in how people find out about and join tango, so plenty of conversation to fill the gaps. Maybe even drag it out to two tandas, it's always fascinating to talk with tango newbies who are accomplished in other dances.

(If I wasn't being clear enough, no, I don't think she could give me even a hundredth of the quality of pleasure I experience with my favourite followers — or even just my regular followers — but that doesn't really matter. I wouldn't be dancing with her because I enjoy dancing with her, it'd be because I'm curious why a beginner like her is doing at one of the most "advanced" milongas in NYC, and I simply enjoy learning about other people. And hey, if we're friends, what's the harm in one friendship tanda, unless I'm in a bad mood?)

 

[tangoing]

When I lived in the Bay Area I had chatted with a work friend and he said that his female friend loved tango and was eagerly telling him that he should go. I kinda held my tongue because of the different gender expectations and experiences at events. I don’t think the zouk dancer’s experience in NY was really that venue specific. I know a lot of salsa and swing dancers in a smaller town, they try tango in earnest for one or two full class sessions and drop out because even the friendliest milongas are unwelcoming to a social dancer of other styles.

Well yeah…after 1-2 sessions of tango no one is milonga ready, I know in swing/salsa you can easily jump into a social after just a few lessons.
One should try to get comfortable in practicas first before jumping into milongas unless it’s specifically a beginner milonga and advertised as such.

 

[tangoing]

All the history, culture, tradition, even Spanish names for moves... It's optional. You can call a hug an embrace or abrazo, the cabeceo/mirada the nod/look, whatever. You pick these things up by exposure, casual conversation, from teachers.

Most people just ignore them and are perfectly happy!

All I believe is that they shouldn't be lost.

yup, not necessarily needed to know, but the majority of (if not all) super advanced dancers / professionals I know (not counting actual argentineans) are quite knowledgeable of those cultural historic things.

 

[tangoing]

Argentine tango is not like any other social dance. It's an entirely different animal.

I’ll say AT is actually closer to an MMA discipline like jiu jitsu than it is to other dances. Like you don’t walk into a BJJ gym and expect to spar with the best people, nor even the mid level people. You sort of have to work your way up, and that’s true for tango too.
Whereas in something like salsa you could very likely dance with the best person in the room in your first day of dancing.

 

[brujo]

I’ll say AT is actually closer to an MMA discipline like jiu jitsu than it is to other dances. Like you don’t walk into a BJJ gym and expect to spar with the best people, nor even the mid level people. You sort of have to work your way up, and that’s true for tango too.
Whereas in something like salsa you could very likely dance with the best person in the room in your first day of dancing.

that describes the attitude I see in a few of the cities around me. It really sucks if you’re coming in from smaller, more beginner scenes and try to go to the bigger milongas. Hard to become BJ Penn when there are only 6 people in your biweekly practicas.

 

[tangoing]

that describes the attitude I see in a few of the cities around me. It really sucks if you’re coming in from smaller, more beginner scenes and try to go to the bigger milongas. Hard to become BJ Penn when there are only 6 people in your biweekly practicas.

If that’s your case I’d probably try to be overly social to people when you do go to the bigger milongas and establish yourself as the friendly newbie which might get some of the older followers to invest in you.

 

[Brummbaer]

I personally spoke with several veteran NYC dancers who were at the same events in Europe as I was. They all knew the person who took her around at that particular milonga, and he is very, very unorthodox, to be polite. He's an oddball of oddballs, has very strange ideas about what milongas should be, and applies them to every single milonga he's at, be they traditional or casual or whatever. He is NOT the best guide one could have to mainstream milongas (being the vast majority of milongas in the world) simply because his perspective is so skewed.

This is the Facebook post he made about her, but I'm not going to summarise his thoughts on the common customs and códigos of milongas. Read the comments with your morning tea/coffee.

She went there because, if I recall correctly, she had attended events (different social dance) at the same venue and liked it. Personally, I believe her friend should have tried to persuade her to go somewhere else if possible, and if not get a group of his friends to be around and at least dance with her, since it is NYC's El Destino.

Honestly, I've seen a video of her dancing tango with that guy before the incident. Impressive for a newbie, but to be expected from a veteran social dancer, open embrace of course, so honestly I'd be more than willing to dance a three-song tanda with her at a milonga/practilonga, or even four songs actually, since I'm always interested in how people find out about and join tango, so plenty of conversation to fill the gaps. Maybe even drag it out to two tandas, it's always fascinating to talk with tango newbies who are accomplished in other dances.

(If I wasn't being clear enough, no, I don't think she could give me even a hundredth of the quality of pleasure I experience with my favourite followers — or even just my regular followers — but that doesn't really matter. I wouldn't be dancing with her because I enjoy dancing with her, it'd be because I'm curious why a beginner like her is doing at one of the most "advanced" milongas in NYC, and I simply enjoy learning about other people. And hey, if we're friends, what's the harm in one friendship tanda, unless I'm in a bad mood?)

No one comes out well from this. Her attitude, the 'friend', nor those she interacted with at the milonga. The only thing it highlights in general are the attitudes and actions of those who consider themselves 'elites' at that milonga. But the publicity and media attention are the things which affect recruitment and retention. It also highlights why some may be at a milonga - it's just another dance, to 'hunt', for company, for the food, to play out some retro/cultural role when times seemed better, that elusive feeling with another human, to celebrate, to meet up, for fun...

Not every milonga satisfies what one is looking for. There's a milonga for the 'younger set'. Even some of the great tango dancers of the past would feel out of place there in their older years! There's the small social gathering in the community hall where everyone is retired and discusses grandchildren and illness. Great music and skilled dancing developed over years, but the 'younger set' would feel out of place.

When we went to our first milonga we investigated a few options before choosing. It was a wise choice - out of our depth but friendly and welcoming - and we attended for several years until it closed. Similarly I recall checking with organisers on some workshops and our skill level to do them. Some snooty milongas where it's wiser to go with a dance partner or group (you won't get invited out of a group unless you're regarded as 'fresh meat').

But the theme is 'recruiting and retaining'. Retaining is about an appropriate progression. It seems to me that, for recruitment, we don't advertise well. We don't present information such that someone passing by thinks they might just attend. Some live music. Some dancing in the town square (or shopping mall), some 'free' intro, some participation and interaction, some follow-up (which doesn't mean searching FB for groups if you can be bothered). That business card with some image is a physical reminder. We know the stereotype images (let's ignore the rose!), but that's what's in mind, but attainable.

I guess another view is that people have moved online so don't 'pass by' some street advertising (ls street advertising allowed? Does it need 'approval'?).

 

[Brummbaer]

Tango doesn’t have “this space is for people with atleast two years experience” rule. No such nonsense.

Well, they have the 'nonsense' of not getting invited to dance, unless they're the PYT.