What Is Tango Doing Right/Wrong: Recruiting and Retaining

[pianistamediano]

I don't know if that Zouk dancer on the video was accurate in her appraisal or if she picked some uniquely unfriendly event

It was probably the worst milonga in NYC to attend for any beginner dancer — and there are quite a lot of them there IIRC.

Her appraisal is from the perspective of a veteran dancer in another social dance; valid, definitely, but skewed and without the benefit of someone in the know about tango, so missing a lot of context. Plus, the leader who was rude to her is socially inept and autistic (apparently, not 100% sure but I believe I heard this from NYC locals). This isn't to fully exonerate him at all, just mitigating circumstances. She has simply had one of the worst experiences a beginner follower could possibly experience — bar being entirely ignored and not getting a dance at all for hours, and her friend was not helpful at all.

newer dancers can never expect to dance with a good dancer, or newer dancers can't ask

I am strongly against the idea that in social dance, we should ever expect anyone to dance with us at all. Imposing expectations on people like that is wrong. We hope to get good dances every time we attend an event, and that's fine, but I feel a sense of repulsion whenever I think that I am expected to dance with someone; therefore I do not expect people to dance with me.

Without mutual desire to dance with each other, there is no tango.

In tango, you can verbally ask anyone to dance, but you need to accept any and all potential consequences associated with that act. There's never been a rule or law against it, at least not in the last two decades. Like everything else in life, there are consequences to every action. Ask someone at a practica/casual milonga? They'll almost certainly say yes! Ask someone verbally at a particular milonga where the social norm is to invite via eye contact/head gestures? Your mileage may vary, but they will not be too welcoming because you have violated social norms, knowingly or not.

Social dances each have their own set of social norms, of which a subset is followed at different events. Tango is no different. You're entering a social space that isn't quite like outside society or other social dances, and it's only polite to respect and follow it. You have the freedom to go against them if you like, but there are consequences of course.

I certainly don't mind followers going straight up to me and asking me to dance verbally, but I do reserve the right to say no or move it to a later time without question, without having to explain myself. I even recently picked up a conversation with someone who just had her first class in tango at an outdoors milonga, and we danced six songs after she asked me to dance. I'm honestly very annoyed that this whole Zouk incident has coloured so many people's perceptions of tango when many dancers would do the same as I did quite happily.

outrage at the thought that a newbie would even think to dance with someone good

I don't want to associate myself with tango dancers like that. Let them turn their noses up and be arrogant; they might be at the top of the social ladder, but too many of them will spoil the broth and cause tango to die a slow death from a lack of new people.

People not already addicted to AT will say, "What's in it for me? Why don't I just learn salsa?" Then they are off to salsa, bachatta and maybe they'll give WCS a whirl.

That's the problem — only when you've danced tango for years, are you likely to experience that dreamy tanda/dances that is the number one reason why people like me keep dancing tango, but it's getting to that point in the first place that is so bloody difficult. It's hard to describe what it feels like even to dancers in other social dances, and I have it on good authority from many tango dancers who are veterans in other dances like salsa, swing, bachata, etc. that tango is unlike any other. Simply unmatched in terms of depth of intensity and pleasure (their words, not mine).

Add in that incredibly steep learning curve at the beginning, and well... Essentially, most people who dance tango only stay for the first few years because their friends/significant others are also here.

(People will of course enjoy different things and experience things in different ways, so tango isn't objectively a more pleasurable activity than others — that goes without saying!)

 

[opendoor]

..would point out, though, that you are a special kind of..

t tough barriers, and ignore snide commentary along the way. I don't

..Or maybe this is another localized difference?

Haha! My only goal was to emphasize that social dance events aren't a breeding ground for predators. Neither are tango milongas. I've danced socially in Germany, Denmark, Sweden, France, Italy, Spain, Croatia, and Slovenia. I was warmly welcomed everywhere, regardless of whether I was a good or bad dancer. (I haven't danced in London yet.)

 

[Brummbaer]

I haven't danced in London yet.

You'll need to get your entry visa and then your dance visa for some London events

The rest of Europe is a nicer option.

 

[tangoing]

No one comes out well from this. Her attitude, the 'friend', nor those she interacted with at the milonga. The only thing it highlights in general are the attitudes and actions of those who consider themselves 'elites' at that milonga. But the publicity and media attention are the things which affect recruitment and retention. It also highlights why some may be at a milonga - it's just another dance, to 'hunt', for company, for the food, to play out some retro/cultural role when times seemed better, that elusive feeling with another human, to celebrate, to meet up, for fun...

Not every milonga satisfies what one is looking for. There's a milonga for the 'younger set'. Even some of the great tango dancers of the past would feel out of place there in their older years! There's the small social gathering in the community hall where everyone is retired and discusses grandchildren and illness. Great music and skilled dancing developed over years, but the 'younger set' would feel out of place.

When we went to our first milonga we investigated a few options before choosing. It was a wise choice - out of our depth but friendly and welcoming - and we attended for several years until it closed. Similarly I recall checking with organisers on some workshops and our skill level to do them. Some snooty milongas where it's wiser to go with a dance partner or group (you won't get invited out of a group unless you're regarded as 'fresh meat').

But the theme is 'recruiting and retaining'. Retaining is about an appropriate progression. It seems to me that, for recruitment, we don't advertise well. We don't present information such that someone passing by thinks they might just attend. Some live music. Some dancing in the town square (or shopping mall), some 'free' intro, some participation and interaction, some follow-up (which doesn't mean searching FB for groups if you can be bothered). That business card with some image is a physical reminder. We know the stereotype images (let's ignore the rose!), but that's what's in mind, but attainable.

I guess another view is that people have moved online so don't 'pass by' some street advertising (ls street advertising allowed? Does it need 'approval'?).

Ironically that specific milonga from the nyc incident sometimes does have sidewalk advertising with a little chalkboard (it’s located in a side room for a bar) for the premilonga class which is usually beginner focused, funny how her friend didn’t even bother to bring her to that class.

 

[lucia_l]

I am strongly against the idea that in social dance, we should ever expect anyone to dance with us at all.

I agree no one should "expect" anyone to dance with them in the sense of thinking they can't decline. I was also pretty vocal at the thought that a couple can't just dance endlessly with each other and must stop and dance with other people.

It's just reading the thread, it sounded some Tango dancers were outraged she would even suggest such a thing might occur. She should at least be allowed to hope it would occur, or hope that people might be willing to dance with newer dancers.

Without mutual desire to dance with each other, there is no tango.

I think you can waltz without mutual desire.... but you shouldn't have to do it.

In tango, you can verbally ask anyone to dance, but you need to accept any and all potential consequences associated with that act.

Well ok. But in life, someone also has to accept the consequence that people will describe what your reaction to being asked verbally. They might describe that online and different people will express their opinions too.

This particular thread is about retaining and recruiting. If tango or a tango venue has sufficiently negative consequences for beginners or new-to-the group people, one of the consequences is that tango or that venue may find it difficult to recruit or retain new blood.

There are consequences affects the goose, gander, gosling, whatever.

There's never been a rule or law against it, at least not in the last two decades. Like everything else in life, there are consequences to every action. Ask someone at a practica/casual milonga? They'll almost certainly say yes! Ask someone verbally at a particular milonga where the social norm is to invite via eye contact/head gestures? Your mileage may vary, but they will not be too welcoming because you have violated social norms, knowingly or not.

Sure. But by the same token, if that's the social norm, newer dancers are going to have a reaction to it. And they are going to tell other people. And there is a consequence for tango. In this case, the consequence was the Zouk dancer wrote about her experience. A fair number of people who dance other dances are likely to react and say, "Ok. I won't bother trying tango. It's just not worth it."

And telling people that that's just the social norm for some tango places or tango will only result in them saying, "Oh wow! Then it's really not worth it! Not my cup of tea!"

That said: if you need to do that to retain the experienced group and a sufficient number of people like that norm, not attracting the newer dancers will not be fatal to tango as a social dance.

I'm honestly very annoyed that this whole Zouk incident has coloured so many people's perceptions of tango when many dancers would do the same as I did quite happily.

Sure. But you aren't actually saying that her report is false. You have said she happened to go to the worst possible place. But you've also said the off-putting to newbies reaction is a social norm. So they should sort of deal with the consequences of violating it. Sure: but that doesn't mean they can't tell other people! That's a consequence to.

I don't want to associate myself with tango dancers like that. Let them turn their noses up and be arrogant; they might be at the top of the social ladder, but too many of them will spoil the broth and cause tango to die a slow death from a lack of new people.

Precisely. Without new people tango will die. It's the same with any social activity.

 

[Bailango]

Ironically that specific milonga from the nyc incident sometimes does have sidewalk advertising with a little chalkboard (it’s located in a side room for a bar) for the premilonga class which is usually beginner focused, funny how her friend didn’t even bother to bring her to that class.

There is a lot to discount on what went wrong in that particular incident. The two guys video covered it well. Her friend taught her and was supposed to meet her at the event. She reached there before him.

If I take my dance friends to a different social dance, I will dance with them first. So they can get their feet wet. If the friend is a follower, she has always got invited during the evening by others. If it is at tango, then other leaders who watch us dancing either ask her or hope to ask. If it is a leader, they feel intimidated to ask anyone or unsure. However when I have introduced them to followers, the followers have been kind enough to ask and encourage him to dance.

I am not talking about any one particular male or female friend. My experience spans multiple female or male friends who are dancers but don’t have experience in a another social dance. That includes those who never danced tango. By same token I have been introduced by friends a different social dance and been warmly received. The WCS is very friendly and so it shouldn’t count.

How you break someone into a social dancing which is new to them, requires a bit of common sense and setting right expectations. Unlike the zouk dancer, all the people/friends I introduce to a dance scene which is new to them, were intimidated and didn’t have any expectations.

Not a friend, but I recall in the past someone who moved to the local area from different metro. She has already participated and won championship at national level in fusion or swing. I don’t remember. She started tango as a complete beginner and soon became good. I remember seeing her first time at one of the snobbiest milongas you can find on the earth. I asked her for a tanda. She hadn’t been asked and I had made a note of that. Later may be one or two others asked her. By her second or third milonga she was getting asked regularly. She was certainly a fast learner. After a few months she bought a friend. Her friend proved to be one of the fastest to pick up tango skills that I seen. She had no dance background.

I can write a lot more about how my friends from different social dancing backgrounds experienced their first tango experience. It is not uniform. The men always found it more difficult (not surprising) than the women.

To come back to square one, the zouk dancer reminds me of someone who when solving an equation made all the wrong intermediate derivations/steps but accidentally arrived at approximately correct answer.

 

[Rabbit]

Her appraisal is from the perspective of a veteran dancer in another social dance;

But I often dance with good dancers from some other dance background that just started tango or are trying it out and it's generally very enjoyable from the start.

I don't know what's wrong with the rest of the tango community, these are people you want to stay around...

 

[tangoing]

But I often dance with good dancers from some other dance background that just started tango or are trying it out and it's generally very enjoyable from the start.

I don't know what's wrong with the rest of the tango community, these are people you want to stay around...

Yeah but people didn’t know that about her + looks most likely played into it too.
If she was some PYT she probably would’ve gotten more dances even at this milonga.

 

[brujo]

Yeah but people didn’t know that about her + looks most likely played into it too.
If she was some PYT she probably would’ve gotten more dances even at this milonga.

I am not familiar with the scene in NY but am a little surprised she wasn’t asked to dance by another women. In the milongas in Portland you see a ton of women leading new faces in the scene.

 

[Bailango]

It was probably the worst milonga in NYC to attend for any beginner dancer — and there are quite a lot of them there IIRC.

I have known rank beginners extremely intimidated by similar milongas and refusing to go to them till they have been dancing at other milongas for a length of time. I known a a couple of beginner followers who said, they cried after going back home from such a milonga with a huge self doubt about their own dancing. I known both leaders and followers who never got to dance on their first time attending these kinds of milongas.

Myself and a few others try to make strangers (people we haven’t seen before) feel welcomed. A lot of time they are good dancers who are visiting (for work or pleasure) the metro area. Less common is someone that is returning to tango after years of break. Occasionally it might be a new beginner. If I am there by myself (mostly), I will ask for a tanda. If I am with friend or two, I will be either introduced or I will introduced them to friends I am with.

Despite unfriendliness of tango (some venues more than others), people continue to enter the scene and stick with it.

Personally, I blame those who are leaders of the community (organizers and instructors) for not making tango more friendly and welcoming. And then the general (unfriendly) attitude that pervades at milongas, which among all social dances is very unique to tango. The same people are very friendly outside the milonga.

Her appraisal is from the perspective of a veteran dancer in another social dance; valid, definitely, but skewed and without the benefit of someone in the know about tango, so missing a lot of context.

This!!

Plus, the leader who was rude to her is socially inept and autistic (apparently, not 100% sure but I believe I heard this from NYC locals).

I think I saw the Reddit thread where dancers from NYC confirmed the leader in question is known for being let’s say not having normative social skills.

This isn't to fully exonerate him at all, just mitigating circumstances. She has simply had one of the worst experiences a beginner follower could possibly experience — bar being entirely ignored and not getting a dance at all for hours, and her friend was not helpful at all.

I don’t know if it falls into category on one of the worst. I would categorize it more towards what a new person uninitiated in tango could expect. She amplified her side of the story to make it look worst. Looking at it from neutral lens and accepting her narrative as factual, I still don’t find it surprising.

I am strongly against the idea that in social dance, we should ever expect anyone to dance with us at all. Imposing expectations on people like that is wrong.

You know I have a more nuanced argument against that. To me a beginner should expect to be asked. Otherwise they will never come to a milonga.

We hope to get good dances every time we attend an event, and that's fine, but I feel a sense of repulsion whenever I think that I am expected to dance with someone; therefore I do not expect people to dance with me.

If everyone thought like that, there would be no tango either are you saying you do not dance obligatory dances at all?

Without mutual desire to dance with each other, there is no tango.

I say that you shouldn’t force anyone or put them on the spot. Similarly you should be willing to decline if you feel being forced or put on the spot.

Personally speaking I am willing to knowingly dance a tanda which I already know would be sub-par. There can be multiple reasons for that.

I have a friend (your age when he started) who put in a lot of effort to become a really good dancer because one instructor (female) told him he wasn’t cut out for tango and he felt snubbed by a few other followers when he was a beginner. Three of his regular dance partners (at different times who practiced with him), he felt started ignoring him after they got better. In his view and a few other followers, they used him. I can say he is not weird and is popular with good followers on the scene. I had warned him when I first met him that don’t be zealous about getting better out of a grudge. Do it because you genuinely wish to. He carried that chip (of being snubbed or underrated) on the shoulder. I was not surprised he burnt out (just when he started getting acknowledged as one of the best or better dancers) and now rarely dances. My point is there were three or four followers who had mutual desire to dance with him for about a year and if he is to believed (about them ignoring him or not accepting his cabaceos) then lost the desire to. He too is a bit sensitive and not someone who will push the issue. It was clear how that hurt him.

My point is that mutual desire can often have an expiry date.

In tango, you can verbally ask anyone to dance, but you need to accept any and all potential consequences associated with that act. There's never been a rule or law against it, at least not in the last two decades.

Or ever. Think of it. Tango in old days of BsAs was a neighborhood affair. Those kind of neighborhoods have ceased to exist in the west once suburbia started and cities became metros. But if you are in the neighborhood, where any social activity is part of the fabric of the society, which I think tango dancing was - people know each other. You cross paths with them daily. Families know each other for more than one generation. Naturally in those places cabaceo was merely a formality and people certainly worked have verbally asked. If I know someone and they are at a distant, a look is enough to check if they are up for a dance. This is natural to do in any social settings to confirm something with a look if person is at a certain distance. Now maybe if you go to a different neighborhood or city center(?) where people from different neighborhoods come together, that look became a bit more formal turning into the tradition of cabaceo. At some point the tradition became cabaceo and a codiga.

. I'm honestly very annoyed that this whole Zouk incident has coloured so many people's perceptions of tango when many dancers would do the same as I did quite happily.

Not sure how many people got influenced. I agree it is annoying.

 

[tangoing]

I am not familiar with the scene in NY but am a little surprised she wasn’t asked to dance by another women. In the milongas in Portland you see a ton of women leading new faces in the scene.

That probably would’ve happened at a lot of different milongas in the city tbh. This one has the smallest dance floor (only one lane and no middle) so people are pickier about not dancing with beginners at this one.

 

[Bailango]

A fair number of people who dance other dances are likely to react and say, "Ok. I won't bother trying tango. It's just not worth it."

And telling people that that's just the social norm for some tango places or tango will only result in them saying, "Oh wow! Then it's really not worth it! Not my cup of tea!"

Other social dancers have been saying that for at least 15 years!! Without ever trying to dance tango ever. The reputation of tango and cabaceo is fairly known among other social dancers.

Maybe it was new to the zouk dancer. I doubt though. She probably had heard of the tango reputation. I wouldn’t go as far as to say that she got a reality check that it is true.

When other social dancers are told I dance tango too, almost without exception their question is “is it true that you have to….,,” (squinting their eyes and often putting it as “doing that thing with your eyes”).

 

[Bailango]

we danced six songs after she asked me to dance.

First time around I read it as six tandas I was hmmmm…okay!

 

[TTanguero]

But hearing outrage at the thought that a newbie would even think to dance with someone good?

The main issue people had was not her expectations/thoughts, but that her friend hadn't briefed her on even the most basic of the codigos. You don't go and tap a stranger on the shoulder and verbally ask them to dance!

 

[pianistamediano]

But you've also said the off-putting to newbies reaction is a social norm. So they should sort of deal with the consequences of violating it.

It isn't in general — things are more flexible elsewhere, but at that particular venue, from what I gather, it may as well be a rule to not ask verbally except between friends. Hence the more extreme reaction.

Like I said, there are countless places where she would have gotten a far better reception. I don't mind that it's a report of her horrible visit to El Destino, but the way she wrote her blog post, it implied that the rest of the tango world was the same.

A fair number of people who dance other dances are likely to react and say, "Ok. I won't bother trying tango. It's just not worth it."

My point exactly; because it's such a one-sided report that it unfairly, permanently colours tango for these people. Horrible experiences exist in every social dance, and while ignoring them is a recipe for disaster, we also promote the enjoyable experiences too.

if you need to do that to retain the experienced group and a sufficient number of people like that norm, not attracting the newer dancers will not be fatal to tango

Most people are short-sighted and care only about the short-term consequences in general — case in point!