What Is Tango Doing Right/Wrong: Recruiting and Retaining

[pianistamediano]

But I often dance with good dancers from some other dance background that just started tango or are trying it out and it's generally very enjoyable from the start.

I don't know what's wrong with the rest of the tango community, these are people you want to stay around...

They're still not tango dancers, and by definition as beginners know little to nothing about tango and everything surrounding it.

That's why we treat them kindly and not assume things.

 

[pianistamediano]

You know I have a more nuanced argument against that. To me a beginner should expect to be asked. Otherwise they will never come to a milonga.

There's a distinction between hope and expect; the latter implies imposing an obligation on the part of the other person.

If everyone thought like that, there would be no tango either are you saying you do not dance obligatory dances at all?

You misunderstand; anyone can want to dance with another person for any number of reasons. They're handsome, they're good, they're friends, they can get you an invite to an exclusive private milonga, you want to remain friends with them... I dance with someone only if I want to and if they want to dance with me.

There's been nights where I have had no dances at all; I shrug it off and accept it as something that can happen.

My point is that mutual desire can often have an expiry date.

I mean, my point already covers that. Maybe I should have been specific; mutual desire at the point of inviting/asking/cabeceo. Mood can affect one's desires.

 

[pianistamediano]

When other social dancers are told I dance tango too, almost without exception their question is “is it true that you have to….,,” (squinting their eyes and often putting it as “doing that thing with your eyes”).

About as annoying as when people hear that I'm from Country X and they start asking about all the old, tired stereotypes.

 

[Miradamiranda]

am a little surprised she wasn’t asked to dance by another women. In the milongas in Portland you see a ton of women leading new faces in the scene.

This was one of the main reasons I thought I’d give leading a try. To pay it forward.

If I’ve been traveling for non-tango reasons and pop into whatever milonga in that town that I could find online and that fit my schedule, just to check out the local scene without any expectations as an unknown, there have been wonderful female leaders who have asked me for my first tanda to help me be seen on the floor. Regardless of how experienced they were as leaders (some were fantastic, some were just doing me a favor), I could be observed to be neither professional (read intimidating) nor a novice, and a smiling friendly face, so I always got plenty of tandas after that.

I’m very happy they made that gesture towards me, and once I’m good enough myself as a lead, I’ll be looking around to help others. I don’t have ambitions of becoming a great lead although I like a new challenge.

In recent months I’ve been going back to my old maestro’s classes (drop in) and taken whichever role there was most need for to balance. Very enjoyable. If the balance was equal, I picked the leader’s role because the level was more fitting for me.
One negative consequence, though, from me learning to lead, is that several of my favorite male leaders now want me to lead them.

I’m still convinced that for recruiting new people or people from other dance styles, bringing your own partner should not be required. Especially for beginner level. If too many of any role, there’s plenty to learn from taking the other role in class, regardless of their chosen main role.

 

[Brummbaer]

But by the same token, if that's the social norm, newer dancers are going to have a reaction to it.

I've already used the example of learning a few steps of social waltz, rocking up to the Blackpool Tower Ballroom, and expecting everyone to dance with you. Or, even worse, it's a Viennese Waltz, but so what - it's got 'waltz' in the name, and you know a few steps of a waltz... It's similar, but not identical here (have you seen someone dancing tango to milonga?). We seem to have lost the art of observation and being respectful to the game in play. (And in the situation described, IMHO everyone got something wrong and everyone's report has some truth in it)

In days of tango yore, that would have been sorted out at the practica. You had to be 'good enough' not to dishonour your teacher at an actual milonga (even the neighbourhood milonga). Now we expect to learn the 8CB and go to an allegedly prestigious milonga. But you started to learn to dance with some objective - competition, dance with others, socialise, the ball, the milonga...

I'll go with an idea that there should be a strata of milongas (even milonga vs. practilonga). How do you check that when there are no standards? It seems, from some reports, that's discouraged in BsAs by pricing for locals compared with tourists, and where you're told to sit.

Without new people tango will die. It's the same with any social activity.

That's the key aspect. We're starting to see that. Not just in recreational, social, activities like dance, but also in any form of community service. Here I'm putting that down to an increasing retirement age, costs, and the economic and political outlook. So, we get the 20-30's with no kids or responsibilities who may learn AT at college or university, and a population spending longer in work. They retire and it's the bucket list holidays. Learning dance, even tango, isn't on the agenda because it's been forgotten - unless you look in social media and the algorithm sends it to you.

Even if you've learnt dance, it's a question of how much you want to spend each week/month on a milonga. If they've stopped being 'fun', then you're even less inclined to spend the money.

I can go to some milongas for 3-7 UKP, which are nice, pleasant, sociable, fun. Even some good dancers. Why would I pay 15-25+ UKP to be miserable?

 

[tangoing]

Other social dancers have been saying that for at least 15 years!! Without ever trying to dance tango ever. The reputation of tango and cabaceo is fairly known among other social dancers.

Maybe it was new to the zouk dancer. I doubt though. She probably had heard of the tango reputation. I wouldn’t go as far as to say that she got a reality check that it is true.

When other social dancers are told I dance tango too, almost without exception their question is “is it true that you have to….,,” (squinting their eyes and often putting it as “doing that thing with your eyes”).

I think that varies, i’ve met social dancers from other dances and they didn’t know about the cabaceo or tanda structure at all. They just know our close embrace is super close compared to other dances.

 

[Brummbaer]

I’m still convinced that for recruiting new people or people from other dance styles, bringing your own partner should not be required. Especially for beginner level. If too many of any role, there’s plenty to learn from taking the other role in class, regardless of their chosen main role.

That's an ideal, but circumstances may necessitate changes. Maybe back to an older style of teaching by drills.

 

[tangoing]

Like I said, there are countless places where she would have gotten a far better reception. I don't mind that it's a report of her horrible visit to El Destino, but the way she wrote her blog post, it implied that the rest of the tango world was the same.

To be honest, her experience is closer to what the default experience is for a new/unknown follower who’s not a PYT at a non beginner milonga, and many people have said they experienced the same, like in the comments of her post (and posts talking about it) and the videos commenting on it. As opposed to being new at any of the other dances, I don’t think that would happen.

 

[lucia_l]

I've already used the example of learning a few steps of social waltz, rocking up to the Blackpool Tower Ballroom, and expecting everyone to dance with you.

I'm American. So other than the actual competition, I'm unfamiliar with Blackpool Tower. But also, I didn't get the impression that the Zouk dancer expected everyone to dance with her.

Or, even worse, it's a Viennese Waltz, but so what - it's got 'waltz' in the name, and you know a few steps of a waltz... It's similar, but not identical here (have you seen someone dancing tango to milonga?).

I sort of get what you are saying. As difficult as AT is, hoping someone might dance down an AT with you is not the same as hoping someone dances a Viennese Waltz with you. It's also not the same as hoping someone will dance a quickstep with you.

I think someone mentioned that if her appearance had fit beauty standards she likely would have received invitations from leads who would be perfectly willing to "dance down" to her.

In days of tango yore, that would have been sorted out at the practica. You had to be 'good enough' not to dishonour your teacher at an actual milonga (even the neighbourhood milonga).

Sure. But if the subject is about "recruiting and retaining", the lack of these doesn't help Tango recruit now. And if they don't exist the "catch 22" of you should only expect to dance if you go to a practica, but there are no practicas will be resolved on the side of "no new dancers."

I'll go with an idea that there should be a strata of milongas (even milonga vs. practilonga). How do you check that when there are no standards? It seems, from some reports, that's discouraged in BsAs by pricing for locals compared with tourists, and where you're told to sit.

Maybe there should be a strata of milongas. But if these practilongas don't exist, and the glitterati of tango not only don't dance with the newbies, but actually lecture them about how they shouldn't even attend the milonga, AT is going to have a recruitment and retention problem.

Obviously, absolutely newbies are not going to go to BA to learn. It's too expensive and AT has not yet become a priority for them.

That's the key aspect. We're starting to see that. Not just in recreational, social, activities like dance, but also in any form of community service. Here I'm putting that down to an increasing retirement age, costs, and the economic and political outlook. So, we get the 20-30's with no kids or responsibilities who may learn AT at college or university, and a population spending longer in work. They retire and it's the bucket list holidays. Learning dance, even tango, isn't on the agenda because it's been forgotten - unless you look in social media and the algorithm sends it to you.

It's true that dancing has competition with other hobbies. Retirees can garden, travel, knit, train dogs, visit their grand kids, watch a lot of movies and do lots and lots of things. But if the issue we are discussing is recruiting or retaining people to AT, you need to compare to other dances. Why do more people want WCS? Or Zouk? Or country? Or even, dare I say it, ballroom?

I'm a retiree. I toyed with AT but picked other dances. Being forgotten is not the reason people don't pick up AT. Among the reasons

1. The available local milongas are a somewhat long drive into the city and start and end later at night than the ballroom, west coast, country and etc. socials.
2. I am put off by the idea of cabaceo instead of using words.
3. I am also put off by they notion that one dances three dances with a new acquaintance instead of the normal one standard at other social dance gatherings.
4. I've heard reports of general unfriendliness (unsocial behavior) from other dancers who have tried out AT gatherings locally. This includes ballroom/salsa/country teachers who gave it a whirl, and ballroom/salsa/country who gave it a whirl. It's not the report from a single isolated Zouk dancer.

Hearing that some (especially 2-4) are just cultural norms that I will need to deal with merely make me want to dip my toes into a different culture!

By the same token, maybe 1-3 are features that attract some people. Different strokes for different folks. It's hard to believe 4 attracts people, but who knows? Maybe some people aspire to achieve being admitted to an "in" crowd who rejects (or appears to reject) most people until they prove themselves. I'm not attracted to that, but maybe some people like it. Fraternities have hazing, right?

Even if you've learnt dance, it's a question of how much you want to spend each week/month on a milonga. If they've stopped being 'fun', then you're even less inclined to spend the money.

Yep.

I can go to some milongas for 3-7 UKP, which are nice, pleasant, sociable, fun. Even some good dancers. Why would I pay 15-25+ UKP to be miserable?

Precisely. If you want to recruit, you need to make the experience fun for new dancers.

 

[tangoing]

1. The available local milongas are a somewhat long drive into the city and start and end later at night than the ballroom, west coast, country and etc. socials.
2. I am put off by the idea of cabaceo instead of using words.
3. I am also put off by they notion that one dances three dances with a new acquaintance instead of the normal one standard at other social dance gatherings.
4. I've heard reports of general unfriendliness (unsocial behavior) from other dancers who have tried out AT gatherings locally. This includes ballroom/salsa/country teachers who gave it a whirl, and ballroom/salsa/country who gave it a whirl. It's not the report from a single isolated Zouk dancer.

2 varies a lot based on country/city/milonga. In other south american countries that’s not argentina, ppl actually ask verbally rather than cabaceo, probably since they’re so used to doing that in salsa/bachata etc.
3 I feel like is somewhat needed for tango. Compared to other dances there’s a lot of nuances to the whole embrace and figuring out how your partner moves and how sensitive they are etc, that the first dance sorta is the warm up dance. In milongas in nyc recently, I’ve seen they’ve started doing more 3 song tandas instead of 4 song ones to get people to circulate more.
4 And like i said earlier AT is closer to an MMA discipline than it is to other social dances (for good or bad depending on how you view it)

 

[Brummbaer]

I'm unfamiliar with Blackpool Tower.

Sorry, I thought you were more familiar with Ballroom. I suppose it's the UK premier ballroom dance location renowned for its historic sprung floor and organs rising through the floor - and the changeover of organists. A sort of Mecca for ballroom dancers.

I sort of get what you are saying.

An Argentine Tango Milonga (meeting for dance) usually comprises 3 different dance types: tango, vals, and milonga (a type of dance). There may be other variations, but those 3 have different rhythms. Later milonga is typically seen as faster requiring smaller steps. It's a fun dance. You can't really do lyrical moves to the rhythm, but you see beginners for whom every dance is 'tango'. My comparison was basic waltz (vals) vs. Viennese; like tango and milonga - related but different. Someone doing basic waltz would not, I guess, be popular if other dancers were dancing the Viennese Waltz?

But if the issue we are discussing is recruiting or retaining people to AT, you need to compare to other dances

Not necessarily - you have to recruit them in the first place from other activities/priorities. AT has always been seen as scandalously sensuous, so, as in most advertising, sensuality sells. The actual participation, as with all dances, is somewhat different and involves hard work, practice and a lot of sweat.

The available local milongas are a somewhat long drive into the city and start and end later at night than the ballroom, west coast, country and etc. socials.

Yes, we drive quite a long way for some milongas. Cities, unless you stay overnight, are not good or economic. Also means avoiding any alcoholic drink unless there's public transport.

I am put off by the idea of cabaceo instead of using words

Yeah, I get that one. Yes, I can do it - and do. To me it should be unnecessary to play that game out of BsAs, but if that's the game in play, respect the rules. Close social acquaintances usually ask. There's a whole thread on the issues. I noticed that somewhere in Berlin recently introduced a 'cabeceo floor' - the reasons: partly that the environment was too difficult for some to play the game.

I am also put off by they notion that one dances three dances with a new acquaintance instead of the normal one standard at other social dance gatherings

That one's messy. 3 or 4 is a modern tradition. 3 gives more changes. Some venues occasionally have 'speed tandas' (2), particularly if other types of music or dancers from other dance scenes. Some places have 5, or unlimited (the cortina, the break) was a construct for adverts on US radio, or to give the orchestra a break.

I've heard reports of general unfriendliness (unsocial behavior) from other dancers who have tried out AT gatherings locally

And that's the big problem which some of these sticklers to their tradition need to accept, recognise, and change to recruit and retain.

 

[brujo]

I think that varies, i’ve met social dancers from other dances and they didn’t know about the cabaceo or tanda structure at all. They just know our close embrace is super close compared to other dances.

And unless you’re a ballroom dancer the navigation of the floor is absolutely intimidating for any of the latin, blues, fusion and swing dancers. I’d argue that nowadays the close embrace is a bit easier sell due to the rise of zouk, sensual bachata, kizomba and fusion compared to say twenty years ago when I first tried to learn tango.

 

[fiesta0618]

I've already used the example of learning a few steps of social waltz, rocking up to the Blackpool Tower Ballroom, and expecting everyone to dance with you. Or, even worse, it's a Viennese Waltz, but so what - it's got 'waltz' in the name, and you know a few steps of a waltz... It's similar, but not identical here (have you seen someone dancing tango to milonga?). We seem to have lost the art of observation and being respectful to the game in play. (And in the situation described, IMHO everyone got something wrong and everyone's report has some truth in it)

Well, now that you've used the example twice, I do feel the need to pipe up....

That beginner would get some dances. Even in the Viennese Waltz case (there is an annual Viennese Ball in my city with a Slow Waltz lesson lesson beforehand, for some crazy reason, so I've seen exactly this silliness occur). Although probably not [m]any repeats, especially for the VW case.

That cultural difference is one of the very reasons why the story in question raises eyebrows.

 

[brujo]

1. The available local milongas are a somewhat long drive into the city and start and end later at night than the ballroom, west coast, country and etc. socials.

One of the main luxury features of tango for me in the US is actually that it operates on times friendlier to retirees. Salsa events here are usually start at 9 with a lesson, then dancing from 10-1. Tango just seems so much more civilized with 1 pm practicas and classes that start at 7pm. In the next biggest city in Oregon they have an event at the Veterans Hall that ends at 10 pm, which is exactly when the salsa dancing next door actually starts. So even if I drive out to tango events I can usually be home by midnight after an hour drive vs 2 or 3 am from bachata sensual or salsa.

It’s a little scaring learning about midnight milonga start times in Argentina.

 

[lucia_l]

Sorry, I thought you were more familiar with Ballroom.

I'm familiar with Ballroom in the US. I am aware of the competitions in Europe. I don't keep track of social venues as they are irrelevant to me.

I suppose it's the UK premier ballroom dance location renowned for its historic sprung floor and organs rising through the floor - and the changeover of organists. A sort of Mecca for ballroom dancers.

Sure. But that doesn't tell me anything about what etiquette people expect. Historic sprung floors doesn't necessitate any sort of dance-snobbism where only the tippy-top dancers are allowed on. The venue might be able to impose that if they want, but it doesn't need to. And I don't inform myself on what the social rules are in England! That's way outside the distance I'll commute from the suburbs of Chicago!

An Argentine Tango Milonga (meeting for dance) usually comprises 3 different dance types: tango, vals, and milonga (a type of dance). There may be other variations, but those 3 have different rhythms.

Sure.

Later milonga is typically seen as faster requiring smaller steps. It's a fun dance. You can't really do lyrical moves to the rhythm, but you see beginners for whom every dance is 'tango'. My comparison was basic waltz (vals) vs. Viennese; like tango and milonga - related but different. Someone doing basic waltz would not, I guess, be popular if other dancers were dancing the Viennese Waltz?

In ballroom, if a beginner only knew Waltz, then others would only dance Waltz with them. Similar thing happens with chacha, rhumba etc. People don't expect to others to dance with them if the music playing corresponds to a dance they don't know. You don't teach it on the social floor.

However, people wouldn't suggest a beginner should dare ask or hope to be asked to dance a waltz if the beginner only knows waltz. I don't dance Peabody or Zouk at all. So I don't hope for anyone to dance that with me. If they asked, I'd say no.

Yes, we drive quite a long way for some milongas.

People who already dance AT drive a long way for that. Likely newbie recruits will tend to find some other dance that is closer.

Cities, unless you stay overnight, are not good or economic. Also means avoiding any alcoholic drink unless there's public transport.

Alcohol generally makes it more difficult to dance. So I'd avoid it even if I was taking public transport!

Yeah, I get that one. Yes, I can do it - and do. To me it should be unnecessary to play that game out of BsAs, but if that's the game in play, respect the rules. Close social acquaintances usually ask. There's a whole thread on the issues. I noticed that somewhere in Berlin recently introduced a 'cabeceo floor' - the reasons: partly that the environment was too difficult for some to play the game.

Of course if you play the game, you stick to the rules. All I'm saying is if a game has certain rules, the people who play it shouldn't be surprised when others point out those rules exist. They should be surprised if it turns out others decide to not play that game because of those rules.

Lots of people can chose to not to dance AT. And this thread is about recruiting and retaining. You can keep telling people to take it or leave it. But then don't marvel that lots of people leave it.

And that's the big problem which some of these sticklers to their tradition need to accept, recognise, and change to recruit and retain.

That's sort of my point. I'm not saying the rules are wrong. I'm not saying AT must change them just because some people don't like those rules. I'm merely saying that if you are discussing what AT needs to do to recruit and retain, you may need to decide whether the rules are "worth it".

If you think the rules are "worth it", that's fine. But you'll also discover lots of people think "social tango is sort of snobby, antisocial, artificial, unfriendly or all sorts of things. And when presented with a "take it or leave it" demand (which is what "dem's the rules" is), lots will say, "Ok. I pick leave it."