What Is Tango Doing Right/Wrong: Recruiting and Retaining

[Miradamiranda]

My maestro never minced his words on me. He said something the equivalent of ‘pretend you have but more there and push that forward and the pretend you had a bit less there and try to tuck that in’

Rather I felt bad pouring out all my limitations on you.

Don’t be. All good.

 

[opendoor]

Gym is a modern phenomenon...

I read intuitively, Gym is a modern pheromone.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Her center of gravity looks a toward the front as does his. I don't know precisely where it is, but if the CG is in front of their toes, it's difficult to be fully in control of ones balance. You are relying on the other person.

Hers should be slightly off axis, his should not be (and probably isn't here).

 

[ArbeeNYC]

This milonguero embrace (aka apilado) is physically demanding.

They are not the same, not really. As was explained to me, "milonguero" embrace involves the leader more or less vertical, on axis, and the follower slightly off axis and leaning into the leader. Apilado involves much greater forces on both sides of the embrace (think Gavito and his partners for an extreme example). With a good follower, the milonguero approach is super comfortable and very easy to lead.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

This milonguero embrace (aka apilado) is physically demanding.

They are not the same, not really. As was explained to me, "milonguero" embrace involves the leader more or less vertical, on axis, and the follower slightly off axis and leaning into the leader. Apilado involves much greater forces on both sides of the embrace (think Gavito and his partners for an extreme example). With a good follower, the milonguero approach is super comfortable and very easy to lead.

 

[opendoor]

They are not the same, not really.. the milonguero approach is super comfortable..

There may be differences between milonguero, centro, apilado, confitería, or Almagro. In everyday life, however, the term milonguero style is the most understandable and widely used.

Yesterday, I acted as an Anabaptist. I went dancing and was able to convert two very good followers to the salón style. Both danced in a way one expects in Europe at encuentros. After the first few steps, I asked each time if we couldn't switch to salón, as it was much more comfortable for me. In both cases, the answer was, "How does that work?" I said, "Look, now your right cheek is against my right." In salón style, your left cheek is against my right." No sooner said than done, and both of them found it enriching.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

There may be differences between milonguero, centro, apilado, confitería, or Almagro. In everyday life, however, the term milonguero style is the most understandable and widely used.

Yesterday, I acted as an Anabaptist. I went dancing and was able to convert two very good followers to the salón style. Both danced in a way one expects in Europe at encuentros. After the first few steps, I asked each time if we couldn't switch to salón, as it was much more comfortable for me. In both cases, the answer was, "How does that work?" I said, "Look, now your right cheek is against my right." In salón style, your left cheek is against my right." No sooner said than done, and both of them found it enriching.

I've never found that embrace particularly comfortable. It also requires extra care by the follower not to press to hard on the leader's head. Some can do it, some cannot.

 

[opendoor]

...never found that embrace particularly comfortable..

you will change your mind at my age

 

[Miradamiranda]

I've never found that embrace particularly comfortable.

Oh I like it all. It’s all good. They all have their positive sides. I especially like when it fluidly rolls from one type of embrace to another. Either within the same song or tanda. The only kind I dislike is with her hand on his biceps. It depends on the music, the anatomy match, the floor space, and the mood/ energy. With the same partner I might do different embrace styles. I don’t make a religion about picking one and sticking to it at all cost. I’m not unhappy with all milonguero style, but I also don’t mind if there’s a complete opening of the embrace as in the effect of ‘going away and happy to come back home’.

But…. I guess that’s one of the privileges followers have, to adapt to all styles.

 

[JournalInTime]

I guess that’s one of the privileges followers have, to adapt to all styles.

Leaders really should as well!

I don't dance the same way with everyone because not everyone can or wants to dance the same way, whether for reasons of training, skill level, artistic expression, values, anatomy, neurology, psychology, or something else. I can't expect a follower at the beginner through intermediate level at the majority of tango schools, which seem to start everyone out open, to want to dance closed – and I must also respect the fact that an ultra-short follower, whatever her skill level, might not want to breathe my chest. I must acknowledge that some older followers learned only the V embrace, and consider anything more closed scandalously intimate and anything more open scandalously shabby and punkish . . . while others of the same age learned only "milonguero" style, and can't imagine pivoting instead of crossing, or not keeping torsos flat together. I have to remember that there are nuevo, fusion, and stage dancers who can dance close but who feel creatively stifled without distance and elasticity. I shouldn't deny somebody who's anxious in crowds or who learned "tango is heart to heart" the option to snuggle in.

And much, much more.

The idea that leaders dance however they like and followers just have to adapt is one take on tango, but for every teacher I've heard say, "The leader offers an embrace and the follower accepts it," I've had one say, "The leader must respect the follower's choice of embrace." In effect – like all of tango – it takes two. Negotiating style is a great deal like old-timey modems negotiating capabilities and choosing optimum speed and encoding before sharing data.

So, we all need to adapt.

I confess to having been taught a style that many of us would call "salon tango" almost exclusively early on; to having worked in the V embrace for a very, very long time; to many hundreds of hours of classes on "nuevo" movements (all the world's sacadas, colgadas, volcadas, ganchos, soltadas, and whatnot); and to preferring a belly lead that favors a flat, "milonguero" embrace. This has let to an odd personal style: one that's normally ultra-closed with weight-sharing, despite an overwhelmingly "salon" vocabulary, but that sometimes opens up for colgadas and even soltadas. I have no issues dancing just salon, V, milonguero, or whatnot if the follower clearly prefers it, though. I do have issues dancing constantly open (follower's hand on bicep, etc.) – because I wasn't ever taught that way – and I'm working hard right now to add that capability, with mixed results.

There's also this idea of adapting one's style, including embrace, to the music, choosing stylistic elements based on the style that was prevalent in the time and place when and where that music was popular. I'm less concerned about that. I think one should change dynamics and vocabulary to suit individual pieces of music, but I'm not in love with the idea of affecting style X because this piece was created by orquesta A in barrio B in year C, and in that time and place, fans of that orquesta danced style X. I believe that leader and follower should always negotiate style based on the personal qualities I listed above (training, values, anatomy, etc.), to any and all music, and that they should express the piece that's currently playing using whatever dynamics and vocabulary their physical and technical capabilities permit, and that suit their artistic sensibilities.

I mean, I might not open up into a colgada and mark sharp rhythmics to D'Arienzo by turning it in sudden jolts that cause boleos, but I admire those who can. Likewise, I see no harm in expressing Pugliese using tiny steps in a flat embrace, as long as you're on the music, even if that isn't my thing. The music is old, cut, and dried, so to keep tango interesting, we have to reinterpret how we dance it all the time.

 

[Bailango]

I've never found that embrace particularly comfortable. It also requires extra care by the follower not to press to hard on the leader's head. Some can do it, some cannot.

To me it is comfortable and most common that I come across. Right to Right cheek is far less common (since follower decides how they place their head). There are indeed a few followers that will press hard upon leaders head in Left to Right placement. I find it annoying but it is very infrequent. Causing discomfort can happen with any embrace and head position if one of the two is pressing upon the other.

 

[Bailango]

But…. I guess that’s one of the privileges followers have, to adapt to all styles.

I thought leaders too, since the convention is that lady decides the type of embrace (usually). For example if lady decides she wants to dance in V embrace rather than parallel, there is not much a leader can do. Unless he manhandles and tries to force her to be parallel The same with how a lady positions her head. How close or open the embrace should be. Yes as a leader we can open and close, but her normal or standard close distance (coming back home) is determined by her.

 

[Bailango]

but for every teacher I've heard say, "The leader offers an embrace and the follower accepts it," I've had one say, "The leader must respect the follower's choice of embrace."

To me both are the same and I’ve heard it expressed both ways. Ultimately it is follower’s choice in either case. When I hear “offers”, I take it as an option where leader invites the follower into the embrace (by keeping arms open) at the start. And the follower decides how to walk into the arms hence determining the embrace. I never took “offers” to mean dictate and “accept” to mean submit. Is there something getting lost in translation. Irrespective of the words used to express, I think almost every single instructor made clear that leader has to wait for follower to settle into the embrace. Hence it being a follower’s choice on what figure the embrace is.

Negotiating style is a great deal like old-timey modems negotiating capabilities and choosing optimum speed and encoding before sharing data.

Indeed. You just get used to it and it happens within a second or two.

I confess to having been taught a style that many of us would call "salon tango" almost exclusively early on; to having worked in the V embrace for a very, very long time

Within “salon” too a follower can choose either a parallel or V hold. Some Vs are wide on the open side and some close.

Wider V hold whether in “salon” or “apilado” has always been a dislike for me. I can dance it well but I feel there is less signal that I am getting from the follower.

I do have issues dancing constantly open (follower's hand on bicep, etc.) – because I wasn't ever taught that way – and I'm working hard right now to add that capability, with mixed results.

Dancing open feels and is very different from dancing close. I have to change certain things. I rarely get a chance to dance open since most followers prefer close. And so do I.

There's also this idea of adapting one's style, including embrace, to the music,
but I'm not in love with the idea of affecting style X because this piece was created by orquesta A in barrio B in year C, and in that time and place, fans of that orquesta danced style X.

First I heard any such thing was in here on the forum that too by one person.

 

[opendoor]

..Negotiating style is a great deal like old-timey modems negotiating capabilities and choosing optimum speed and encoding before sharing data.

If I stick out my left hand, I want to dance parallel. If I stick out my right arm, I want V-embrace. It always works intuitively. Try it out! Learned it from Sebastián Arce.

 

[JournalInTime]

Indeed. You just get used to it and it happens within a second or two.

I rarely notice it happening, any more than I notice, say, exactly how someone hands me an object, or how I navigate a sidewalk. And this has nothing to do with tango! I find that in all things in life, if there's more than one person involved, people maneuver, stand, and position their body parts relative to other people in an almost imperceptibly continuous way until resolution is achieved. One notices only when something is radically wrong: the object is offered dangerous end-first, the approaching pedestrian is intoxicated, the dance partner is grabbing aggressively, etc.

Honestly, I find it hard to imagine anybody gives it much thought in tango . . . Once I get the oncoming leader's permission to enter the ronda, I enter, invite my partner onto the floor with me, embrace them, establish free legs, and take the first step in a heartbeat or three. When it's really chaotic, it all happens at once with a salida del '40: permission followed by hug, hup!, and go.

Within “salon” too a follower can choose either a parallel or V hold.

Yes. This is why I used "salon" and "V" as two different examples in my post. I can dance salon style with or without the V, and the V with or without salon style. More to the point, tango masters in classes can do so, so it isn't just me.

Dancing open feels and is very different from dancing close. I have to change certain things. I rarely get a chance to dance open since most followers prefer close. And so do I.

It's my strong preference. Artistic and emotional reasons aside, it's more compact. On a chaotic floor, I have real issues with people dancing larger than the thickness of two bodies, perhaps with a bit of extra space for a V. It's just rude to stand an arm's length apart, taking up enough space for two couples, when there's barely enough space for everyone to hug.

First I heard any such thing was in here on the forum that too by one person.

I've heard it from quite a few teachers, too (though fortunately not my coaches!). Some are adamant that one dances certain orquestas and periods in certain styles . . . "or else." One guy even refuses to dance a couple of orquestas because they "demand" a style he dislikes. I've always found it bizarre. You can dance nuevo movements to a 1923 tango – and canyengue-style to anything with a clear marcado, regardless of origin – without disrespecting or falling off the music.