What Is Tango Doing Right/Wrong: Recruiting and Retaining

[fiesta0618]

Just realized that I really ought to screencap Carlitos and Agustina if I want to show a great example, right?

For each of them, trace the line from nape to tailbone. Almost perfectly straight. She has a slight bend in the lower back, but not enough to bother me as a technical matter.

So how do they achieve forward poise? A gentle fold in the hips. Like Gianpiero, except he is overdoing it sometimes, putting his butt and shoulders beyond the boundaries of his heels and toes. And the fact that he combines a fold and a hunch is unsettling to look at, for me.

 

[lucia_l]

The extreme version of it is kyphosis.

View attachment 6267

This diagram is well beyond anything we see in the videos, but you get the idea. It is eminently possible to poise the weight forward or backward without this hunched posture, and the problems it creates are mechanical as well as aesthetic.

I'm not sure it's well beyond every thing. This is from video 1. This pair actually moved much more than other couples. They were one of the few pairs who did not look geriatric!

 

[Miradamiranda]

I don’t think it’s fair to compare the two videos higher in this thread, one with young pro show-offs with plenty of space and a bunch of mostly old people in an encuentro. I was at that event the following year, my first encuentro. I wrote about it elsewhere on here. This video must have been a particularly sleepy moment, mostly the floor was very very full. And normally very neatly organized in 3 disciplined lanes. I was constantly telling myself to only take tiny steps and not lift my heels higher than mid calf height. It’s very hard to look good with those limitations, but one could argue you don’t dance at an encuentro to look good, but to feel good. There were some very fine (mostly male) dancers there, several are in my top-10-15 partner list. Not that I feared being black-listed from the encuentro world (or even cared), I didn’t let go and allowed myself to be myself on the dance floor till late the last night when the old people were worn out or already in bed, and there was space to do so. With a partner (I knew from elsewhere) who also had felt the pressure to confirm to traditional encuentro dogma. Not Nuevo dancing, and still all close embrace, but without the pressure from the ‘rules’. (To a late Pugliese, no less…)

That said, I’m all for subtlety that feels good inward in the dance over show-off moves. But there’s a helluva lot of waste land between those extremes. I like traditional inward subtle dancing, and I like dancing with more adventurous moves. And I like events where I can do a large range with different partners without being frowned upon or risk hurting anyone.

 

[Miradamiranda]

There were a number of leaders whose dance I thought looked amazing, and it was only when followers consistently said otherwise that I realised how deceptive looks can be.

I’ve said it many times and I’ll say it again. Tango teaches you that how something is perceived from the outside is often nothing like how it feels from the inside.

 

[TTanguero]

Not to be too rude.... but here, where there is no progression, little decoration, no vigor, focusing on the embrace and being "internal" reminds me of the focus of 8th graders dancing the "bear hug" at our sock hops.

I think what Fiesta demonstrates here is a couple of things.

First, even for tango dancers, different people have different preferences. There will be people here who would have a very strong preference for being in one of the two social dancing situations shown at the beginning over the other.

Second, and more fundamentally, that the only way to have someone appreciate tango is to experience it. Right now you are judging the dance by your visual impressions. If you actually danced tango, you may find that what looks great to you doesn't feel great – or you may not. There's just no way for you to know until you've experienced it.

One of my follower friends came with me to Buenos Aires when we were two years into the dance. At a milonga, she danced with a local leader who would have looked exactly the way the majority of leaders did in that encuentro you thought looked like elderly people shuffling around. She didn't stop raving about that tanda for several days.

The great recruitment challenge with tango is not to have people see visually impressive dance and want to try it for that reason, because people who want that are mostly unlikely to stay. What we need to somehow achieve is to have people try it.

There's an annual event in London run by the Argentine Embassy which gives anyone the opportunity to come and experience tango. I danced with several women who had never danced tango before, who immediately understood the appeal, even in a very brief taster, doing nothing more than a few steps and rebounds, and I would be confident that at least two of them will take it up. To me, this is the sort of thing we need more of.

 

[lucia_l]

Second, and more fundamentally, that the only way to have someone appreciate tango is to experience it. Right now you are judging the dance by your visual impressions. If you actually danced tango, you may find that what looks great to you doesn't feel great – or you may not. There's just no way for you to know until you've experienced it.

Of course we are judging by appearance. We were asked to.

FWIW: I think smooth, rhythm and most country feel great. Exhilarating, comfortable and so on.

There's an annual event in London run by the Argentine Embassy which gives anyone the opportunity to come and experience tango. I danced with several women who had never danced tango before, who immediately understood the appeal, even in a very brief taster, doing nothing more than a few steps and rebounds, and I would be confident that at least two of them will take it up. To me, this is the sort of thing we need more of.

When did this happen? Did these women actually take up tango?

 

[fiesta0618]

I don’t think it’s fair to compare the two videos higher in this thread, one with young pro show-offs with plenty of space and a bunch of mostly old people in an encuentro.

I agree with you, with respect to the fact that it isn't fair to compare pros to amateurs.

What do you think about the comparison of the different styles of professional? If we take Tete as the archetype of that intensely introverted encuentro style, for example?

 

[TTanguero]

When did this happen? Did these women actually take up tango?

It takes place in July or August each year. I very rarely dance in London, so won't have any way to know personally whether they do, but I know that it has proved successful in the past.

 

[TTanguero]

Of course we are judging by appearance. We were asked to.

Absolutely. It wasn't a criticism, merely an observation that what we have asked you to do isn't actually very useful.

 

[fiesta0618]

Absolutely. It wasn't a criticism, merely an observation that what we have asked you to do isn't actually very useful.

It is useful as you want it to be.

Obviously, there's no value at all in asking an outsider's opinion of how the dance is supposed to look. That isn't even a good question to ask a veteran, because it is fundamentally a statement of artistic preference.

But there's potentially a lot of value in asking an outsider what impression they take away from an aesthetic. Especially if we hold that conversation with the original intent of this thread in mind, which I do think we've wandered away from a little. Because what you'll hear from me and lucia are opinions on what it would take to get an experienced dancer from another style to be intrigued by Tango and want to take it up--in our case, Ballroom.

So consider our input in this way: If your only exposure to Argentine Tango were X, would that entice you to try it?

Speaking for myself, it breaks down thus:

Emphatic yes:
Yanina & Bruno (first pro video). They have visibly incredible technique, they employ it in an amazingly broad palette of colors & textures, and they obviously have SO MUCH FUN doing it. If this is how all Tango worked, it would be the only dance I needed.

Yes:
Agustina & Carlitos. Visibly incredible technique, beautiful musicality. As a dancer, I would prefer to paint with a wider variety of colors than they show in this one video, but their example makes me say I want this as one style in my collection. It would not be enough to be my whole dance world, but certainly would be a valued part of it.

Sure, why not:
Social event #2, the "mess." It looks fun, but also looks the same as what I get from social Ballroom. Messy technique, but a broad palette of colors in evidence. I'd try it for a lark, not expecting to find anything so compelling that makes me want to put in the effort to jump ship.

Tete: I can tell that he is good, but his dancing looks like a museum piece, limited by deliberate choice. I have no reverence for tradition, so I tend to grow impatient with such self-imposed boundaries. He makes me wany to dip my toe into a historical curiosity, but not stay for any length of time.

No:
Gianpiero and Lorena. What they do reads as Fusion. I respect Fusion, but I want it to be done by dancers well-versed in all of the styles they are combining. Or failing that, I prefer the "base" style to be one with a more neutral or versatile basic carriage than AT. When I watch them, it makes me think the Westies do it better.

Social event #1, the "pensioners." They do not reach out for a varied palette, AND they don't have the level of technique that obviously feels good just to stand and experience. I'd prefer to just hold a party with all my friends, and be sure to hug them often.

 

[Brummbaer]

When did this happen? Did these women actually take up tango?

I did see some videos of this year's event. It looked somewhat forlorn in the rain. Previous years' have looked better.

Ther are also monthly(?) al fresco milongas at Spitalfields. These are well attended with numerous passers-by stopping to watch, or even participate in a 1-hour introduction. Unfortunately it's not the best surface and the somewhat minimal covering went a few years ago.

There used to be a 'New Year's' milonga at the South Bank Centre - free and open to all. That used to get many participants - including families with their kids and babies.

Tanguito in Islington have also recently been running some al fresco milongas at the Angel shopping centre on Sundays. I guess that might provide the best statistics on recruitment. If it's worthwhile, lookout for more.

My wife and I took up AT from v. basic ballroom after discovering social tango at a tango orchestra performance at a castle in Switzerland. I guess it's what intrigued you about a dance coupled with a thought that maybe you could also learn to do that. It's both interesting and accessible.

Some do include performances - sometimes from known 'stage' dancers. Unfortunately the UK weather isn't very kind towards open-air, public, dance.

 

[TTanguero]

It is useful as you want it to be.

My point is that it's not useful to try to recruit other dancers on the basis of how tango looks. What it needs is a way to provide them with a brief experience of it, from the inside rather than the outside.

 

[TTanguero]

I did see some videos of this year's event. It looked somewhat forlorn in the rain. Previous years' have looked better.

Yeah, the weather was unfortunate. I'm not sure that the Spitalfields taster has ever generated a single tango dancer! The Islington ones, it will be interesting to see, as you say.

The Clore Ballroom event, alongside the outdoor one in August at the same location, certainly attracted a lot of spectators, but I'm not sure that it provides a route into tango. I can recall seeing it several times back in my pre-tango days, and it didn't lead me to following it up in any way.

 

[pianistamediano]

I'm not sure that the Spitalfields taster has ever generated a single tango dancer! The Islington ones, it will be interesting to see, as you say.

They're slow burners, admittedly. I think there's a strategic timing to these things, like having a beginners' course begin the week after a taster, but honestly just having people dance tango for hours in public is probably the best advertisement we can have for tango right now.

 

[Bailango]

My point is that it's not useful to try to recruit other dancers on the basis of how tango looks. What it needs is a way to provide them with a brief experience of it, from the inside rather than the outside.

Unfortunately with social dances including tango, more people get recruited for how it looks than how it feels. If those were to be only two factors.

A brief experience of tango, in my experience hasn’t been enough to recruit people. Even those that enjoyed brief experience or the music. I have tried it with several friends who are good non-tango dancers. I have tried it with non-dancing friends.

The next up is observing many years of recruitment of new dancers by active university tango club every year.

The last is how many new beginners seen at classes or practicas are still dancing two years later.

Tango and social dances don’t have problem of lack of people willing to try it out. They have problem of retaining people who try it out.

When an organizer or instructor has a very deliberate goal to bringing in new people and catering primary to people for whom dancing is new, the results are good. I seen a few who did this in swing, salsa, and tango. All managed to build their own vibrant community within a year.

Unfortunately most organizers and instructors try to cater to existing dancers and their needs.

It is self defeating that the instructors don’t have a platform, where they can get together and discuss how to create events and spaces primarily targeted at people new to dancing. Having more new people join dancing creates opportunities them because eventually beginners start seeking out other classes, workshops, and private lessons.