Now you're assuming judgements whilst I was simply looking at other perspectives with 'maybe'. No judgement implied or intended. Fair enough to discard that if it doesn't fit.
What is tango doing wrong: #1 - tandas
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JournalInTime
Forum Master
I can speak only as a leader, but:
Milonga gets described as the "simplest" dance in the tango family because it has a smaller traditional vocabulary and is often danced strictly on the beat. It can be simple, if you mark the beat with a mostly walked milonga lisa. However, some leaders – myself included – find dancing only traditional milonga steps on the beat to be deadly boring. We like to mark the melody, particularly the voice, where present; we want to use traspiés; and we enjoy transforming tango and vals vocabulary into milonga vocabulary by dancing it with the energy and timing of milonga. All of which calls for a partner who can move quickly in irregular time, often with tempo changes, and not freak out when the step isn't straight out of Milonga 101 . . . and who can make those things look and feel good.
That isn't many partners. So, when I'm out to dance, I save my milonga tandas for people I know can do this stuff. My general observation has been that the older tangueras are better at it. The younger ones (here . . . remember, everybody's scene is different!) are too often still in pretty-princess mode and try to turn everything into a lyric movement with sweeping adornos, which just won't work in milonga.
Two of my three favorite milonga partners are old enough to be my mother, and specifically have unkind words for the men who invite them and then plod the beat in regular time. One likes to say, "Milonga needs energy!", while the other's philosophy is, "Every step should surprise me!" The third partner is my age, tiny, and very light, and takes advantage of her size and weight to propose saltos almost everywhere and even lifts where she gets to "run on air." I can't realistically impose these ways of dancing on an unknown partner.
Something similar is true of vals, where I find the technical limitation is comprehension of turns and good turning technique. Somewhere between 2013 and present, I lost dizziness in turns and with it, the need to spot; I can easily dance turns nonstop for 2-3 minutes without losing precision or balance. So, I choose partners who have good curving steps of equal size in turns, so I can play with sacadas, patadas, circular barridas, ganchos, etc. without risk; who understand progressive turns, not just turns in place; who know that turns can change sense mid-turn; who know that turns don't have to be SSQQS or FSBS all the time; and of course who don't get dizzy while turning. Again, that isn't something I can realistically ask of some random tanguera.
When I want to dance with a new partner, I generally pick a tanda of Di Sarli tangos.
Miradamiranda
Well-Known Member
Exactly! It’s so boring to just step on the beat. So I’m always looking for any tiny little hint of traspies, but too many mediocre leaders are too wishy-washy about them, not direct enough. So I go for it when I believe I’m given one, and so often it becomes an oops-moment that I then fix from my side with tripling up, but meanwhile the leader thinks he has to quickly fix it and then an awkward clumsy wrong-foot situation happens. So I’d rather wait for a tango or vals till I know the partner.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
That reflex right there is one I had to work very hard to lose. "Let things happen how they happen, and go with the flow" is, for me, the most fun way to dance. I seek followers who share that philosophy.
Do I make errors? Yes! The fun follower senses this (say, my traspié was wishy-washy
) and runs with it as though it were a deliberate proposition instead of trying to fix it to get where they thought we'd end up.Do my favorite partners – even the very high level ones who teach and perform – make errors? Yes! A lot of my fun comes from sensing this and running with it as though it were a deliberate counter-proposition rather than trying to fix it to get where I thought we'd end up.
Dancing in the moment like this is all I care about. The instant I sense I'm dancing with someone who has to get their imagined pattern just right, who needs to end up thus and so to keep going, I stop having fun. A movement executed is already in the past. Let's dance in the now.
This isn't the same as saying I don't care about technique or precision or whatever. I totally do. I like to keep my body safe, place my feet securely, and express the music. But none of that has very much to do with not making the occasional error in communication and, instead of pouting, proudly doubling down with "Yeah, we meant to do that!" confidence.
Miradamiranda
Well-Known Member
When someone apologizes and says ‘my mistake’ my standard answer is there are no mistakes, just opportunities to improvise. A rough paraphrasing of a famous Miles Davis quote about no wrong notes.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
This plays into what I just said. Sometimes, I sense that the geometry of my couple, the energy and direction of our movement, the teasing of the music, the space available, etc. sets up a movement that doesn't have a special name and isn't typically taught in classes. My reflex is to think, "Qui audet adipiscitur," and to just go for it. Fun partners are ready for anything, and dare right back; less-fun partners Google their mental playbook of steps from class, come up empty, and freeze.
pianistamediano
Forum Master
Your language appeared dismissive of my own perspective, but I should have said that your words implied judgement, not that they were actually judgements. I don't blame people for wanting to influence their environments to suit their own purposes and wants., but I am also free to push back against them.
I've gone too far with that statement about you though, so I do apologise for that.
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pianistamediano
Forum Master
Yes, well, I believe Miles Davis would call playing all 88 keys on a piano a mistake in the vast majority of situations!
pianistamediano
Forum Master
For me, no need to look good, just be good.
Unfortunately, most followers can't follow the way I want to dance milongas, so while I do take risks occasionally, I prefer not to. I couldn't do half the things I do in a milonga tanda without a great follower, so I have no idea why some followers expect me to do the same with them. I can compensate a lot, but not that much!
Of course I use it too, but the communication is quite imprecise in the grey area between "I would love to dance anything with you at any time" and "I don't want to dance with you at all".
pianistamediano
Forum Master
Those are essential, but I find that my biggest pet peeve in partners when dancing a vals with them is that they are not fluid enough. Every movement must flow into the next without ceasing, even pauses need to feel dynamic unless the music calls for stillness; but the majority seem to think that everything begins and ends with a tango step, introducing unnecessary beginnings and endings.
This!!! Something so great like this is neglected in classes/workshops. Changing direction, changing speed, changing textures... so many things to play with!
I don't know how, but I've managed to make many followers — who claim that they've never gotten dizzy when dancing vals — dizzy to the point of lightheadedness and loss of balance when dancing a vals with them. It does require a sufficiently fast and flowing vals though, but it's not just about going fast.
pianistamediano
Forum Master
I agree.
I usually dance a milonga tanda with a follower I started tango with, and we've been dancing with each other for so long that we can improvise wildly and trust that the other person will be able to keep up. Any potential oops-moments are turned into something the other person takes and escalates into even wilder things.
Such great fun!
JournalInTime
Forum Master
I don't want them to look good for me. I want them to look good for them. More precisely: I don't want to be instrumental in making them look bad and not getting tandas as a result.
This is just part of tango life.
I lead maybe two partners in follower back sacadas on a regular basis, but I have many who ask why I never do it with them. I want to say, "Well, you have no overpivot. Your back steps in turns don't curve into me, but zip straight past me." Instead I say, "Oh, it's really hard and I don't lead it well." Not true, I can lead it to two very picky coaches who won't do it if I don't lead it, but I take the blame because that's how I am.
I have one gancho after a leader back sacada where my partner is to my right, my right leg is advanced right next to them, and my left leg is where the sacada lands, behind me. My follower rebounds and throws the gancho through both of my legs, right under the point where they cross. I lead this with (not the same!) two people who understand ganchos well. When asked why I don't lead it to someone who wants to dance it, I say, "It's dangerous." Which it is.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
If I had known how difficult it is to dance a milonga, I would never have started!
But it is often spectacular when her body is tense and her breathing rate is too high at the beginning, until everything normalizes when she realises that even a little bit of traspy is not rocket science. And of course, when a dance partner turns up the speed, I can turn up too.
And now vals too, this simple sequence of turns!
If I have the choice, I would rather dance vals than tango with a beginner. Why not let her feel like a princess
Then that seems to happen rather rarely?
pianistamediano
Forum Master
Unfortunately, yes, especially here...
And when I do hear a Di Sarli tanda, it's always the most rhythmical '40s instrumentals or Rufino or the '50s vocals that best resemble Troilo/Floreal Ruiz. Ugh. I love Di Sarli, but I'm tired of DJs using Di Sarli as an ersatz D'Arienzo or Pugliese/Moran.