What is Tango Nuevo?

[bastet]

OK, maybe I'm completely confused, but I think of it in terms of walking vs. circling.

To me, traditional tango (salon style, I guess) is about the walk, walking in the line of dance, with occasional embellishments.

To me, nuevo tango style is about two dancers circling around either other - the key element is the concept of the circle.

Does that make sense?

Yes- I tend to associate Salon with the walk, and walking figures that take a fair amount of moving space....and Nuevo with a more circular concept, or large movments that tend to be "athletically demanding" (i.e. they take up a lot of my energy but I'm using athletically demanding instead of energetic now...)

But I think of Milonguero in a more circular sense also, since it developed as part of a need to stay in place on a crowded floor.

I think that's why I prefer to dance either Nuevo or Milonguero style too, because I like the circular aspect.

 

[tangonuevo]

... The Salas/Naveira systeme of movement is not limited to what they admittedly worngly call crossed feet....

I think that they use parallel and crossed feet just like the rest of the tango world. But they also use open and cross to describe the position of the legs of the woman relative to the man irrespective of which foot either is on. I originally found the open/cross description to be quite useful when analyzing possibilities and trying new things. After years of thinking that way I now find that it has become second nature and flows into my dancing as well.

 

[tangonuevo]

But I think of Milonguero in a more circular sense also, since it developed as part of a need to stay in place on a crowded floor.

Tango and Chaos has some great footage of Milongueros dancing circles.

I do not think of nuevo as more circular than linear. I instead view it as supporting all of the possibilities of tango, driven entirely by music, partnership, space and floor conditions, and not by stylistic (that word) limitations or preconceptions.

 

[bastet]

I think that they use parallel and crossed feet just like the rest of the tango world. But they also use open and cross to describe the position of the legs of the woman relative to the man irrespective of the which foot the either is on. I originally found the open/cross description to be quite useful when analyzing possibilities and trying new things. After years of thinking that way I now find that it has become second nature and flows into my dancing as well.

right- this is how i have understood it. It's mostly a new description or way of approaching what was already being used to open up new possibilities.

And if you are a complete beginner, and are at the phase where just getting used to some of the tango vocabulary (ie ochos and so forth) is still an excersize in frustration, then I don't think trying to show someone all the possibilities Nuevo has to offer is the best thing. Most teachers seem to teach it at a later time, when people have some basics under control and it makes more sense to start looking at the relational possibilites.

But if a teacher starts early on with the idea of open versus crossed positions, just as a matter of fact and makes mention of the body relations themselves from a very early time before they even teach about all the relational possibilites, so people get used to the idea of the body relation first...then I think there's less chance of what usually happens, which is that someone learns a certain way, and then someone asks them to reorganize it again under a new set of principles (Nuevo) and then they find it at least a little confusing...

 

[bastet]

Tango and Chaos has some great footage of Milongueros dancing circles.

I do not think of nuevo as more circular than linear. I instead view it as supporting all of the possibilities of tango, driven entirely by music, partnership, space and floor conditions, and not by stylistic (that word) limitations or preconceptions.

Yes- I can certainly see your point.

 

[tangonuevo]

...
But if a teacher starts early on with the idea of open versus crossed positions, just as a matter of fact and makes mention of the body relations themselves from a very early time before they even teach about all the relational possibilites, so people get used to the idea of the body relation first...then I think there's less chance of what usually happens, which is that someone learns a certain way, and then someone asks them to reorganize it again under a new set of principles (Nuevo) and then they find it at least a little confusing...

If only my earliest teachers had listened to you!...My introductory instruction was primarily informed by close embrace, where the concepts of open and cross are less important. Indeed, for me, integration of the ideas of open and crossed positions into my dancing was not a trivial task!!

 

[Steve Pastor]

I reviewed the class notes for an introductory class in what could only be called apilado/milonguero/close embrace, and, just as I remembered, going into and out of "crossed system" was introduced early on, in the third class.
I can't agree that it is less important than it is in "nuevo".
(What's important is that it be done well by both the man AND the woman. Only then do you feel the full impact.)

Although there is no requirement to dance small when dancing apilado / milonguero/ close embrace, it certainly facilitates it.
Changing to crossed system in an open embrace doesn't make much of an impression when open, but on a crowded floor it allows for interesting things to do while barely moving.

We should all try to understand that nuevo isn't all that new, or revolutionary, when it comes down to it. The idea that something flaunts the rules and is the province of revolutionaries who are remaking something appeals to many, however; even if it is only their peception of it that is new and revolutionary. Well, except maybe the selection of music to dance to.

 

[Steve Pastor]

This may be a little OT, but at one point "dance places" in BA had not only tango, but swing/jazz going on at the same time. So I wouldn't be surprised to learn that were dancers who incorporated "swango" like movements into their dance.

 

[bastet]

If only my earliest teachers had listened to you!...My introductory instruction was primarily informed by close embrace, where the concepts of open and cross are less important. Indeed, for me, integration of the ideas of open and crossed positions into my dancing was not a trivial task!!

I can certainly understand that, as I've seen plenty of frustration from people with it.

I don't personally see any reason why more and more people can't incorporate some of the teaching concepts of it no matter what style they are teaching in...even if milonguero style in the past has been taught in a more pattern oriented way, or groups of elemental concepts, I think the Nuevo teaching concepts can still be used to good effect.

For instance, if you take a simple rock turn to the left and rock turn to the right that often gets taught with close embrace where one direction the hips remain open to each other and in the other the hips get crossed, and if you just explain it matter of factly to someone new (who will inevitably ask why the two are different)...then you've at least sowed the seeds of being able to think that way, rather than have it be a huge conceptual mountain some ways down the road after a person is already set in their ways of thinking about the dance.

 

[tangonuevo]

... just as I remembered, going into and out of "crossed system" was introduced early on, in the third class....

I'll wager that what was discussed was crossed system as opposed to parallel system dealing with whether the man and woman are on the same or opposite feet.

The cross vs. open concept in nuevo is entirely unrelated to which foot either partner is on. Rather, it describes the relationship between the woman's legs and the man's torso. For example in a giro, the woman's side steps create an 'open' relationship, while the back and front steps create a 'cross' relationship.

 

[tangonuevo]

Open vs. Cross. As another example to help clarify, suppose the woman is walking around me ccw simply taking front steps. Then when she steps with her right foot she is open and when she steps with her left she is cross. Make sense?? I't doesn't matter which foot I am on, or even if I sitting on a chair in the middle of her circle, although sitting in the chair does make some of the dance a little awkward

 

[Zoopsia59]

although sitting in the chair does make some of the dance a little awkward

Obviously you've never been to an exotic dance club

 

[Zoopsia59]

I'll wager that what was discussed was crossed system as opposed to parallel system dealing with whether the man and woman are on the same or opposite feet.

The cross vs. open concept in nuevo is entirely unrelated to which foot either partner is on. Rather, it describes the relationship between the woman's legs and the man's torso. For example in a giro, the woman's side steps create an 'open' relationship, while the back and front steps create a 'cross' relationship.

Thank you. This was helpful in that I was also confused about the difference between the very common "cross feet/ parallel feet" concept vs this "cross/open" thing you are all discussing.

I understand what you are meaning with the giro. Now what about simple forward and backward walking together? Is it considered "open" as long as the leader is not walking "outside partner" and crossed if he is?

(Obviously I've never had an instructor teach the possibilities using these terms, although I'm pretty sure I've been taught the various possibilities)

 

[tangonuevo]

... Now what about simple forward and backward walking together? Is it considered "open" as long as the leader is not walking "outside partner" and crossed if he is?...

Good question. If a couple is walking parallel feet face on, I would call every step open, but I've actually never thought about this before. But if the man is outside left, every back step by the woman with her right foot creates an open position, while every back step with her left creates a crossed position.

If the woman is facing the man and does a side step, creating a manifestly 'open' position, and then without moving her feet simply pivots on her toes so that her upper body rotates 90, or even 180, degrees, it is still open.

Probably clear as mud, but there it is .

 

[Zoopsia59]

Good question. ... but I've actually never thought about this before.
Probably clear as mud, but there it is .

So the terms of closed vs open seem to be applied primarily to the woman moving across the man rather than forward or backward with him?

Maybe its just me, but I'm not finding this method of thinking about the possibilities helpful. It seems to complicate what to my mind are pretty simple steps and concepts and requires some sort of memorization.

I have the same problem with the cross feet/parallel feet thing. I can do either, but I have to remember which term applies to which by memorizing it because its not intuitive to me to describe it that way. And at a certain point, I wonder "why bother?".. Just dance it!